Mulching...

[bazzaboy]

Oooo, soggy tissues, my favourite topic... Not to mess with your post 2S but I've changed the order of points....

We poo in our drinking water. Doesn't that worry you?

Not at all. And that would probably be the ideal place/process for the soggy tissues too... The largely Victorian sewerage system we have in place in the UK is hugely influential in helping to avoid disease and you only need a national or international disaster that knocks out regular disposal systems (earthquake probably being the most common) to see how quickly killer diseases arrive and get in the drinking water - then everyone worries. We are mercifully not too prone to that in the UK though recent flooding tested some systems. (Meanwhile what concerns me more on the same topic is dog poo on pavements, grassy areas and on children's feet and buggie wheels... but that's a different post.)

I'll continue to compost my tissues, despite your reservations.... they aren't blowing about, they're rotting in the (steaming) compost heap

That's fine, and the fact that your compost steams suggests you know what you're doing and have expertise etc... My general point is that as a general recommendation that's unlikely to be the case. Yours not blowing about is no guarantee that your neighbour's won't be and on that basis I'd be wary of it being recommended as general practice.

Common cold virus. Look it up: I bet you can't catch it from compost heaps

Shocked maybe, but infected? We all catch several colds a year, and probably norovirus too ~ from coughs & sneezes, phones, keyboards etc. I don't see that composting my tissues is going to spread those germs, in fact composting is killing the germs.

But it's not solely the "common cold", is it? Whilst many tissues fulfill harm-free functions (tears, make-up, spills etc) - no great problem with them - it's separating them from those that might not be so harmless including carrying germs, disease, infection, viruses etc. How particular ones might react within certain conditions is also difficult to test.

So my concern is not particularly that knowledgeable 2S is composting her tissues somewhere in windy Norfolk but any suggestion of a general rule that used "soiled" tissues belong in some localised heap. What would be the general effect on the wider population? I'd like to know what Peter Kay and his Nan would make of this....

[veggiechicken]

Baz, I've blown my nose so many times reading this! I think just reading about soggy tissues makes my nose run. Have you seen the effect of rain on a tissue? I can tell you, it becomes really soggy and disintegrates. So the grotty tissues that I chucked in the compost bin in my garden yesterday were slippery wet shadows of their former selves this morning. They weren't going to blow anywhere!
I would be more concerned about those little heaps of tissues that you find in the woods which have been used for other purposes (and I don't necessarily mean the humanure route) - my dogs have a nose for these unfortunately!
I think you should concern yourself more with educating the toilet users (male & female) who find washing their hands afterwards distasteful!

[Shadylane]

You people have put me off my lunch for the next three days.

[bazzaboy]

Most of the fields around here (and everywhere in the country as far as I know) were treated with 'night soil' taken from the middens. Thats why you always find interesting bits of Victorian stuff on top of a newly ploughed field!

Thanks for word "middens", Snadger, which I understand is most familiar to Scots, the North East and archaeologists...

Interesting observation but I assume you're not advocating the practice... even at the end of the Victorian era life expectancy was only in the high 40s, early 50s and various diseases, particularly TB, were still rife. Insistence upon and adoption of national practices of health control is a slow process... Of interest to this topic:
BBC - History - Overview: Victorian Britain, 1837 - 1901

Strangely (and not to put SL off lunch for a week coz I speak of North Notts and South Yorks, sorry SL) but this practice, in a more controlled manner, IS still practiced round here and probably elsewhere. Processed product from sewerage farms is used as a fertilizer (I think it goes under slightly codified names such as "black cake") - much more treated than the "night soil" of which you speak and subject to regulation in terms of how quickly and how deeply it must be ploughed in - but it is still used.

But that is after the application of quite a lot of science and specialism, NOT something for the individual to lightly undertake in the allotment compost.....

[Two_Sheds]

The largely Victorian sewerage system we have in place in the UK is hugely influential in helping to avoid disease

It's a very unsatisfactory and wasteful (no pun intended) way to dispose of our "waste". The toilet system is used by ignorant people to dispose of sanitary towels, nappies, wet wipes & cotton buds ~ these are not always filtered out of "the system" which is why so much of it ends up on our beaches

Human waste (poo and wee) is put in the water system which we flush at huge cost (to ourselves via the meter). It's then transported around, filtered, bleached etc before coming back out of our taps.

We use (waste) so much water in the UK that we face restrictions: so how is a continent like Africa going to install our sewerage system? There is another way

We then spend more money (us gardeners) buying in fertiliser and animal manure. Lightbulb moment: why don't we cut out the middle men and use our own waste to fertilise our soil?
Of course, it's been done before, but night soil was hugely problematic because it's "raw" and spreads those germs of which you are afeared. However, if it's composted, like horse muck is, it's perfectly safe and usable. Germs? Worms?
Well, do you have worms? No? Then you can't 'pass them on'.

it's not solely the "common cold", is it? ... germs, disease, infection, viruses

What germs are in your snot Bazza? I'd say the same germs are in your tissues that are on your phone and your keyboard. Do you disinfect those every day? Do you wear gloves so you don't have to touch door handles? No... because it's daft. Be careful by all means, but apply a little common sense. Tissues blowing about in the wild aren't much of a danger: not least because sunlight is a great disinfectant.

I do take your point that it's undesirable to advocate something without explaining and training. Eg, you wouldn't let your kid drive your car without some lessons. However, the information is out there ~ it's just down to us individuals to educate ourselves. We could just plod through life, doing & believing as we're told, or we could pause, think and realise that things don't have to be done like this. We can think 'what's wrong with this picture?' and change it.

the "night soil" of which you speak ... how deeply it must be ploughed in - ...after the application of quite a lot of science and specialism, NOT something for the individual to lightly undertake in the allotment compost

... but certainly something the individual could research and make an informed decision for themselves. I highly recommend (again) this, (go straight to ch.7 perhaps) not least because it's highly informative about the whole composting process. It explains how best to compost anything, what temps are required, what happens to germs.
It's true that some individuals can't be trusted to compost kitchen peelings properly ~ but happily, they can be taught. Chap 8

[Kaiya]

Argh - wrote long reply, forum ate it.

In a nutshell - respiratory viruses spread by aerosol or by fomites; smooth fomites (door handles) transfer them easily, whereas absorbant fomites (paper) do not transfer them so easily. Once on a fomite (be it a door handle or a snotty tissue) they don't become air borne again - they can't 'aerosol' themselves. So to be infected you'd have to pick up a fresh snotty tissue (heat, UV, dessication and generally not being inside a human body will kill viruses within hours) and either eat it, try and inhale it, or eat your lunch without washing your hands after touching it. More risky to take a single journey on public transport.

[jdlondon]

It's true that some individuals can't be trusted to compost kitchen peelings properly ~ but happily, they can be taught. Chap 8

That's a great how-to. I've been wanting to go country, and off grid, for years and I'm saving this for when I finally do.

Also, great informative thread, thanks all

[veggiechicken]

That's a great how-to. I've been wanting to go country, and off grid, for years and I'm saving this for when I finally do.
Also, great informative thread, thanks all

You are the same jdlondon who is squeamish about earwigs and whiteflies, are you not? Better overcome this before you move to the country!!

[bazzaboy]

I highly recommend (again) this

Thanks 2S, I like your quirky alternative reading lists and have ordered a copy for a non-screen browse. Considering the recycling aspect of the topic, it’s interesting that on Amazon "Used copies" are considerably dearer than "New copies".

I can easily be persuaded that as a society we need to learn to waste less, re-use and recycle more, be less profligate in our expectations, undertake wider learning, education and support... However as a reality check in this instance I am now in fits coz I can hear Peter Kay describing his Nan's attempts to get to grips with her new-fangled poo converter that every house (flat?) must have.... "No, not like that Nan, NOT. LIKE. THAT!"

In your first paragraph you talk about "ignorant people" who don't use a WC properly but by the last paragraph that’s miraculously become "certainly something the individual could research and make an informed decision for themselves... happily, they can be taught." That's just not going to happen, is it? We can't even get everyone to wash their hands.....

I don’t need persuading this procedure can work, in fact it already does in our existing sewage farm system producing the previously mentioned “black cake” compost fertiliser. My impression is that as an emergency procedure (again earthquake being the obvious one) it may be a life-saver and there are videos showing recent applications in Haiti. But it should be noted it is quite knowledge and labour intensive and the author admits you’re dealing with disease organisms and that flies also present a disease threat. This means that the procedures require scrupulous application and become considerably MORE complicated than our current WC system. For general usage there would be other difficulties too - for example, I notice the author lives on a 143 acre estate and most of us are 143 acres short there - his poo converter (p146) seems to take up more space than many have to live in and we're heading for a world population of 9 billion.....

In some contrast to this I think our current standard disposal system in the UK that we have inherited is little short of miraculous: simple to use, taught to children and used throughout life, effective, sanitary. Maybe it can be improved upon, certainly it needs maintenance and investment, perhaps it’s a system that’s not the best for Africa where conditions are different, but for us it remains one of the cornerstones of our developed society. Based on an assumption that it’s wisest to put distance between you and any source of disease or infection, waste is transported away and dealt with relatively simply. That affords an opportunity to concentrate on other aspects of life for which we should be grateful.

So an interesting alternative read, fine as a quirky academic paper which is how it started but then once self-marketed any claim it should be public POLICY I suspect simply becomes preposterous..... Use in emergency, excellent; for individuals to use “off grid” as JDL puts it, excellent. But please let’s keep a sense of scale and proportion and - trying to find an appropriate metaphor - let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[taff]

must resist....must resist.....cannot resist....or you could just use the bathwater as grey water and do your flowers with it...


I feel better now.....

[jdlondon]

You are the same jdlondon who is squeamish about earwigs and whiteflies, are you not? Better overcome this before you move to the country!!

Trust me, I know! Spent over a month in the wilds of Canada and spent the time being equally awestruck by the beauty and fresh air AND being terrified of the 'rugged' life.

[veggiechicken]

Bazza, I haven't a clue who Peter Kay and his Nan are (apart from a quick Goggle) but my Nan would have known the reality of dealing with "waste" on a daily basis. Emptying the outside waterless toilet daily, as well as the underbed chamber pots. Bathing in the tin bath on a Friday night in the same water as the rest of the family. Bath water heated on the fire or in the "copper".
Modern sanitation and water supply has divorced us from the reality of catching water and disposing of our waste, and we have become profligate as a result.
My grandparents were in their 90s when they left this world, my Nana didn't have an inside loo until she was 85. And my Grampy always had a vegetable garden and guess what fertiliser he used?

[veggiechicken]

Trust me, I know! Spent over a month in the wilds of Canada and spent the time being equally awestruck by the beauty and fresh air AND being terrified of the 'rugged' life.

No worries about bears over here JD. How many earwigs does it take to be as scary as a bear in your veggies?

[jdlondon]

I'm actually very brave when it comes to big animals - it's the little ones that get to me. I once was stuck holding a jar over a spider for 40 minutes because I was too afraid to let go and have the spider knock it over and escape or worse, climb all over me.

So to answer your question, it only takes one earwig. *shudder*

[di]

Sorry, changing the subject from snotty tissues....I got two absolutely massive cardboard boxes from the school tonight...had it have not been for DS's parent's night, I'd have missed out...call me a little sad, but I'm so excited.