Biological farming - better than organic and conventional?

[purpleone]

Have you seen this article?
https://www.gardenmyths.com/soil-bac...ion-managment/

As you can tell, purpleone, you have sparked my interest in Dr Ingham enough to look deeper into her methods. Sometimes, believing can be enough to make things happen.

No, I haven't came across this so far.
I did read it now. It would take me hours to comment on everything he said.
All I'm gonna say is that he is saying a lot of what is not true or out of the context.
I would not take him seriously at all.

He obviously didn't even read enough and watch enough lectures to see
what she is saying. It's not professional what he did at all by my opinion.

[veggiechicken]

Professional or not - I don't know - but I don't see how anyone, picking up a microscope for the first time - can identify and analyse their soil.

[Snoop Puss]

But it sounds easier for me to do fix the biology in first year and do nothing ever again.
In some cases it may take couple of years dr I. says. I suppose that will be the case with me
because we have been using chemicals for so long so it will take longer time to establish good biology.

Purpleone, in one post, you say you're skeptical about only having to reset the biology once. And in this later post you promote the idea that it's a miracle that can be achieved in one or maybe two years.

Yesterday, I read a very interesting and common-sense piece about tea containing molasses: if you do a one-off treatment with molasses, you provide plenty of food for your soil micro-organisms. But when the molasses runs out, what then? Why, a lot of them will die due to a lack of food supply. Sure your dead micro-organisms provide food for the next generation, but you won't have as many as you had when they were all living it up on molasses. So, you need to take the approach which (I think) Mr Bones advocates, which is keep repeating the tea. It's not a one-off treatment. Like ESKBevin, I don't think even Dr. Ingham suggests you can put things right and then walk away and your soil biology will be self-sustaining, whatever the weather throws at it and whatever you take out of it (your harvest).

This has been a very interesting discussion. But I think you're going to be disappointed in "what sounds easier". Looking after land is a long and ongoing process. I'm still learning and trying to keep an open mind to different ways of doing things. I wish you well with your fruit trees and vines.

[Snoop Puss]

Other exponents of a similar theory are these people
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4L3CL5yxRM
They have a selection of videos that are worth a few minutes of your time.

We may not all wish to grow in this manner, but the fact that it can be done is worth knowing. It's a big leap of faith to go this route which I've not completely taken yet, I'm from a farming family and old habits are hard to break.

Thanks, ESBkevin. I have a monthly data allowance. Even 25 minutes of video takes up a fair chunk, so I'll leave it till the end of the next month to see if I have spare capacity. Most of my learning is from reading, but I know pictures can tell a fuller story.

[ESBkevin]

Goo luck with that. Please let us know how it works.

Where did you learn this stuff from? Youtube? Did you take some course or something? Are there any courses?

I waste hours 'researching ' all kinds of junk. Better than watching TV. You tube is a wonderful resource but you have to cross reference all the time to weed out the charlatans or well meaning amatures.

[ESBkevin]

Thanks, ESBkevin. I have a monthly data allowance. Even 25 minutes of video takes up a fair chunk, so I'll leave it till the end of the next month to see if I have spare capacity. Most of my learning is from reading, but I know pictures can tell a fuller story.

Understood. The person in the bids ia called Val Hermann but most of the stuff online is YouTube rather than written word as far as I can see.
Essentially the idea is a food forest on your front lawn where you choose and drop to refertilise as an ongoing thing. The rich mix of plants encourages good insects and discourages infection or disease unlike a monoculture might. It takes time to generate but with some guidnice the maintenance is minimal. You might not be able to grow all your favourite fruit and veg in huge quantities, but fresh organic fruit and veg is assured appearantly.

[purpleone]

Professional or not - I don't know - but I don't see how anyone, picking up a microscope for the first time - can identify and analyse their soil.

veggiechicken I'm sorry that I don't have more time to explain everything I know. Microscope is just part of the process. But that is why I posted the lecture and by watching it and maybe couple more on youtube you can understand the basis of it and carry on if it interest you.

[veggiechicken]

Its OK, you don't need to explain anything. I shan't be buying a microscope - or watching any lectures.
I've seen enough to know its not for me. I'm sticking with forest gardening and permaculture as I have been for the last 30+ years - before I knew these practices even had a name.

However, I hope it works for you.

[purpleone]

Purpleone, in one post, you say you're skeptical about only having to reset the biology once. And in this later post you promote the idea that it's a miracle that can be achieved in one or maybe two years.

Yesterday, I read a very interesting and common-sense piece about tea containing molasses: if you do a one-off treatment with molasses, you provide plenty of food for your soil micro-organisms. But when the molasses runs out, what then? Why, a lot of them will die due to a lack of food supply. Sure your dead micro-organisms provide food for the next generation, but you won't have as many as you had when they were all living it up on molasses. So, you need to take the approach which (I think) Mr Bones advocates, which is keep repeating the tea. It's not a one-off treatment. Like ESKBevin, I don't think even Dr. Ingham suggests you can put things right and then walk away and your soil biology will be self-sustaining, whatever the weather throws at it and whatever you take out of it (your harvest).

This has been a very interesting discussion. But I think you're going to be disappointed in "what sounds easier". Looking after land is a long and ongoing process. I'm still learning and trying to keep an open mind to different ways of doing things. I wish you well with your fruit trees and vines.

Thank for wishing me well. I wish that to you as well!

Again, sorry, but like with veggiechicken I can't explain everything because I don't have time. And even if I had the time I think it's much better if you could watch the lecture and her other lectures because all together we'll probably waste more time with me explaining it here. Not to mention that I may lead you into the wrong direction.

Plants will feed the organisms. You need to get them into the soil and then the plants will feed them. She said that.

Generally I think that you will be better off if you know exactly what organisms you are missing in your soil and then you apply just that instead of punting in manure, compost, tea and all the other stuff people put each year. She said that "less maintenance will be required each year, as our soils increase in organic matter and microbe populations".

How does that sound to you?

[purpleone]

Its OK, you don't need to explain anything. I shan't be buying a microscope - or watching any lectures.
I've seen enough to know its not for me. I'm sticking with forest gardening and permaculture as I have been for the last 30+ years - before I knew these practices even had a name.

However, I hope it works for you.

Ok, I wish you all the best and thanks!

[purpleone]

I waste hours 'researching ' all kinds of junk. Better than watching TV. You tube is a wonderful resource but you have to cross reference all the time to weed out the charlatans or well meaning amatures.

Thanks ESBkevin. I know what you mean and I'd really appreciate if you could send me some links of good Korean farming videos that you think are useful if you have some.

[purpleone]

Its OK, you don't need to explain anything. I shan't be buying a microscope - or watching any lectures.
I've seen enough to know its not for me. I'm sticking with forest gardening and permaculture as I have been for the last 30+ years - before I knew these practices even had a name.

However, I hope it works for you.

veggiechicken can you explain a little bit what do you do and how you do it?

[ESBkevin]

Purpleone I can't recall the specific Korean farming videos I have watched (quite a few as it happens but not recently). It's a term that refers to making IMO and adding it to foliage and the ground during the growing season to enhance the 'Good Bugs' and defeat the 'Bad Bugs'
Have a search for making IMO, this might give you a start here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgTe4GUXzeQ

There are several stages to making and using IMO 1 through to IMO 5. I've yet to make IMO 1 let alone developing it to IMO 5, but it all tried and tested.

Have a look and see what you think.

[Snoop Puss]

Plants will feed the organisms. You need to get them into the soil and then the plants will feed them. She said that.

Generally I think that you will be better off if you know exactly what organisms you are missing in your soil and then you apply just that instead of punting in manure, compost, tea and all the other stuff people put each year. She said that "less maintenance will be required each year, as our soils increase in organic matter and microbe populations".

How does that sound to you?

Plants feed micro-organisms and micro-organisms feed plants in various ways. That much I believe.

The second point is where I differ. I think it's very difficult (if not impossible) to know precisely what your soil lacks in the way of organisms. Even disregarding the difficulties of identifying the organisms you have and those you lack in any meaningful way, plus working out how you're going to add them and ensuring their continuing survival without the need to keep adding more, soil biology will alter over the course of the year depending on the weather conditions. Plus, the requirements of the plants you put in as a crop will vary as well, depending on what type of plant it is and what stage of its growth it is at (growing leaves or producing fruit). The only soil biology that is self-sustaining is one that is not being cropped and which exists in a relatively temperate climate, a rain forest for example, with plants and animals in a natural cycle. If we wish to grow food, then we have to keep adding back at least what we take from the soil. Otherwise, we (and the land) are condemned to engage in what is little more than slash-and-burn farming. Grow, harvest, eventually deplete, move on.

[veggiechicken]

veggiechicken can you explain a little bit what do you do and how you do it?

Basically, I'm a lazy gardener and let nature do most of the work for me.
I don't dig except to plant trees or dig up deep-rooted weeds.
I let the leaves fall and stay where they land as a mulch.
I chop up weeds and prunings and drop them on the beds.
I don't plant in rows, but mix plants in a kind of polyculture.
Trees are underplanted with bushes which are underplanted with veg and flowers.
I grow perennial veg and leave annual veg to self seed in situ.
I don't worry about crop rotation as mixing up plants means they are unlikely to grow in the same place again.
I don't use manmade chemicals. My chickens turn waste and weeds into compost.
I make liquid fertilisers from comfrey, nettles and weeds.

Crucially, perhaps, I don't garden for profit but for pleasure, so I don't try to grow as much as possible in my garden. As long as I have enough for my needs and some to share, I'm happy.

There are lots of websites/videos about Forest gardens and permaculture. I don't have a favourite, just take a bit from this one and a bit from that and invent my own method that suits me and my garden. I'm always reinventing my method!
Its not a quick fix but its far more satisfying than spraying chemicals around.