Clearing away. Resting the land.

[Two_Sheds]

Bare soil is ripe for weeds, soil erosion by winds & heavy rain, and nutrients get washed away too. And cats poo on bare earth.

I don't think I ever have any bare soil, ever. I always have something ready to go in (I've got 100s of Japanese onions this year, seed & sets), so the allium bed is full (with leeks too).

The spud bed had green manure sown over it in July/Aug

The brassica bed is full, of kale & cabbages, and Jap radish

The legume bed has been sown with green manure and winter lettuce

The roots bed still has carrots & parsnips on it, with netting to protect from frost over winter, and chard

The pumpkin patch had a green manure sown on it in August, which is now coming through

The greenhouse is full too, of trays of onions and overwintering cuttings (fuchsias etc which will come indoors Nov-Feb)

[taff]

I just started reading a book on permaculture and so far from what I've gathered, bare soil is just wrong, sort of like the first steps of evolution for soil, a forest being the last stage in evolution, it gets taken over by grasses/weeds which get crowded out by bushes which get crowded out by bigger shrubs and then trees, simply speaking.
So far, it's a good read, and making me re-think my attitude to the garden alltogether not just to the beds I usually leave bare which then get hammered by rain in the winter and return to rock-hardness by the spring...

[Shadylane]

I'm somewhere in between I suppose. I will have some empty beds which I'll mulch with manure, if I'd been organised they could have been green manured - but organised is not what I am. Ever.

I have leeks in and onions sets/seedlings as well as garlic will be going in soon. I have the usual winter bras and the roots of course. I tried broadies once and peas but they died in the snow, so probably won't bother again. I'll have some winter lettuce going and some salad leaves when I get round to making a cloche.

I'm not sure how you can fill all your beds unless you don't follow crop rotation and that's opening a whole new debate. I'm not brave enough to risk leaving less than 2 years between alliums and bras though I know some do. As for resting - doubt I'll have much time for that. Got loads of tidying and cloche building to do, leaf gathering, path refreshing and after the garlic goes in next month there's only a couple maybe 3 months before the seed sowing starts again. I always say I'm going to sow something on Boxing Day - maybe this year I will.

[Alison]

My beds will be empty for a few weeks now and then but over winter either have veggies in them (although the cabbages, sprouts etc etc will gradually get eaten as winter progresses) and the others will have green manures. At the moment I have some potatoes still to dig up, those beds will be sown with rye grass, probably next weekend. I have a bed full of main crop carrots which will be pulled as needed, same with parsnips and leeks. The onions are up and a green manure planted there. The brassic beds from this year are all full but there is some space for onions over winter where some brocolli was. Legume beds are still quite full with spring cabbages at the ready to plant out where I've taken up the peas. Green manures will be used elsewhere. Pumpkin beds are very full at the moment and there is a possibility they might get left as it'll be just before the frost when they get emptied. In summary, spare space = bad on my plot as it means I've missed a chance to grow a crop or improve the soil.

[Speed Gardener]

There aren't enough daylight hours for working folk like me to do too much, it's all I can do to prepare the fruit bushes/cordons/trees for next year. Apart from a bit of overwintering chard and lettuce, I like to spread all the manure/leaf mold/leaves/compost bin contents I can on the beds, then cover it with carpet or black plastic sheet and let the worms do their bit over the winter. A good thick layer, at least six inches and if I can get it, a foot of manure. Then you just uncover it and dig it as you need it in the spring. Simples!

[Shadylane]

A good thick layer, at least six inches and if I can get it, a foot of manure.

A FOOT???? Wha...? But.... a FOOT?? That's one hell of a lot of poop.

[Wren]

Awww...I knew this would be controversal..lol.

This year has been my best year ever for all crops. Brassica's have been amazing! Celabrase an sprouting broccoli , huge heads o cauliflowers an more cabbage than I know what to do with. A bumper crop o beans an squash so much that I am having to off load them on the chief at work an the sort o Sprouts that i could only ever dream o producing are almost at the ready. The firm settled land mucked over last autumn has done me proud where as previous years I just had mediocre results. I had a 6lb pointy cabbage that did us for 3 meals!!.
Yes nature has her way and i had to hoe off some weeds over winter (snadgers pet hate), weed seeds are in abundance because my plot were left uncultivated for 15 years afor I took it on. Them weeds would have been using up valuable nutrients though, an a hoe is no different than cardboard or other weed suppressant methods.

There were no lack o nutrients for my crops diminished by the winter washing away. Surely the management an cultivation plus the clearing away o the cultivated land is what made us as hunter gatherers in the first place an then we learn to nourish the land to produce the crops we need an settle. Nature abours a vacuum I agree, an so we cultivate to get the best results for food crops that are often much more demanding than the hard Ivy that grows in hostile shaded positions an has adapted.
Cultivation is how we progressed an moved on, working with the environment an nature to get food.

I guess this debate could go round in circles for an age.

[taff]

Surely the management an cultivation plus the clearing away o the cultivated land is what made us as hunter gatherers in the first place an then we learn to nourish the land to produce the crops we need an settle. Nature abours a vacuum I agree, an so we cultivate to get the best results for food crops that are often much more demanding than the hard Ivy that grows in hostile shaded positions an has adapted.
Cultivation is how we progressed an moved on, working with the environment an nature to get food.

I'm not so sure about the first part. We were hunter/gatherers, then we progressed to culitvated land. It was just a way of keeping everything close ot hand instead of going to fetch it from several different places at varying degrees of distance.
You can exhaust soil by not putting something back into it, manure/blood fish and bone etc just artificially feeds without adding bulk to the soil, so if you had clay soil for instance, you wouldn't have better soil unless you put some bulk into it too.
Putting cardboard on top of weeds adds to the bulk of the soil, and encourages worms to come and aerate it for you, it isn't just about suppressing the weeds. It also provides a mulch to keep water in the soil instead of it evaporating, it's a triple whammy. It probably does other stuff too but i can't think anymore at this time of night...

[Two_Sheds]

I just started reading a book on permaculture

Gaia's Garden? That's a good one for home production

beds I usually leave bare which then get hammered by rain in the winter and return to rock-hardness by the spring

Yep, bare soil is bad for the soil. It's not resting, it's being battered by wind & gales & hailstones. The earthworms do a retreat down deeper in the soil. A covering (mulch, or living mulch ie green manure, blankets and protects it)

they could have been green manured - but organised is not what I am

It helps me to keep all my seeds together in monthly holders. Then in August I am sowing green manures along with my other bits and pieces. I can sow a drill (line/row) of green manure amongst the crop I am due to pull up.

I'm not sure how you can fill all your beds unless you don't follow crop rotation

Snadger, Zazen and I all manage it (and others do, I'm sure)

weed seeds are in abundance because my plot were left uncultivated for 15 years ...Them weeds would have been using up valuable nutrients

Weeds come in all the time on the wind, and in bird poop. If soil is bare, they will take root happily. Weeds can take up nutrients if allowed to compete with your crops, however they are also a form of green manure, taking energy from the soil & the sun and storing it in their leaves

a hoe is no different than cardboard or other weed suppressant methods.

It's entirely different: a hoe is disturbing (damaging) the soil surface and, as I said earlier, hoeing exposes more weed seeds to the sunlight, and they germinate: my neighbour hoes for about 6 hrs a day, 5 days a week. After a few days heavy rain his plot has more weeds than mine does (where I don't hoe).

There were no lack o nutrients for my crops diminished by the winter washing away

You had good crops, therefore you assume your soil didn't lose nutrient ... but you've added nutrient in the form of muck and presumably fertilisers?
I don't use horsemuck, never have in 15 years of allotmenting, and I don't use synthetic fertilisers, and I don't winter dig, but I get an abundance of food from my plot, more than we need. It seems I'm getting as good results as you but with considerably less work & expense

the clearing away o the cultivated land is what made us as hunter gatherers in the first place

Cultivating land isn't hunter gathering, it's farming. Completely different

Putting cardboard on top of weeds adds to the bulk of the soil, and encourages worms ...suppressing the weeds. It also ... keep water in the soil ...It probably does other stuff too

Yes, it uses up a waste product (newspaper in my case) which would otherwise be trucked (using fossil fuels) around the globe for landfill or recycling

[taff]

Gaia's Garden? That's a good one for home production

That's the one. Can't you smell the zeal of the newly converted from there?
Ok, maybe a bit over the top, but i'm not the hardest worker on the planet, and while I don't mind doing the work now, too much of the garden is lawn, it's big enough for at least a stab at permaculture, and it will use some principles that were sadly lacking when I first went all gung ho on it.
Look out for radical re-design this winter.

[Shadylane]

Snadger, Zazen and I all manage it (and others do, I'm sure)

Yes but don't Snadger and Zazen disregard taditional crop rotation ie they don't follow a strict plan just don't follow like with like. If I had to fill all my beds with crops for the winter (crops not green manures) I'm thinking I would have to grow more brassicas) which would mess up rotation. I could also put more leeks in but again this would mean leeks going in beds that had leeks in only a year ago.

I don't have a strict plan but try to move things around so they're not in the same bed for a couple of years. I'd love to be able to use all the beds all winter but I just can't figure out how that's possible without taking these risks - yes I know people do it but I don't want to.

As far a I can see I'm probably using just over a third for winter crops (well I will be come late autumn) - the rest will be covered in muck, so mulched not bare - but of course could have been green manured. Other than growing beans/peas which don't survive on our site, for me and my system that's the best I can do I reckon.

[Two_Sheds]

the rest will be covered in muck, so mulched not bare

I'd count that as covered too, not bare soil

[Snadger]

Yes but don't Snadger and Zazen disregard taditional crop rotation ie they don't follow a strict plan just don't follow like with like. If I had to fill all my beds with crops for the winter (crops not green manures) I'm thinking I would have to grow more brassicas) which would mess up rotation. I could also put more leeks in but again this would mean leeks going in beds that had leeks in only a year ago.

I don't have a strict plan but try to move things around so they're not in the same bed for a couple of years. I'd love to be able to use all the beds all winter but I just can't figure out how that's possible without taking these risks - yes I know people do it but I don't want to.

As far a I can see I'm probably using just over a third for winter crops (well I will be come late autumn) - the rest will be covered in muck, so mulched not bare - but of course could have been green manured. Other than growing beans/peas which don't survive on our site, for me and my system that's the best I can do I reckon.

You do whatever makes you happy with your plot Shadylane. After all, veg gardening is about enjoyment. Very few peeps are solely reliant on there veg crops to keep them fed during the winter months. What makes me happy is not worrying that I can only plant brassicas after peas,only liming the brassica plot, only manuring the tattie area and all the other miriad of do's and dont's that our farming ancestors had to worry about.
True crop rotation was devised by and for farmers so that monoculture could be practiced on large fields.
Work with nature, use common sense about which crop you follow with which (but don't get anal about it and worry about breaking the rules) life's too short!
Feed the land and it will feed you!

[Glutton4...]

A lot of sense spoken ^^ there^^ Especially good considering it came from a Fella!

... Feed the land and it will feed you!

That's a great line - I may steal it...

[chris]

Snadger, what do you do then? You pocket plant randomly dont you? How does your rotation fit in with that.. I've not really heard about what you do before