Gardening without animal fertilisers

[nickdub]

For me the clinching argument against veganism is the thought of living in a countryside where there are no farm animals at all - probably I'm old-fashioned but I like to see cows in a field, hear the chickens as they go about their chickeny ways and watch the lambs playing "king of the hill" in the fields - I'd miss all these animals if they weren't any of them around any more.

[Thelma Sanders]

Veganism or vegetarianism isn't some kind of craze people jump onto because it is cool or the latest fad. For a lot of people it's philosophical and a way of life. The low fat diets etc would fit into what you describe but I don't believe vegetarianism or veganism do.

I could agree with you if so many people weren't making names for themselves blogging about it, especially with youngsters who are susceptible to influence, without making sure their food choices are good for their bodies. Veggie/vegan diets have to be very carefully balanced to provide appropriate nutrients for growing youngsters, if you exclude dairy and eggs, as well as meat and fish...
I've got a teenage granddaughter - need I say more?

[Babru]

I eat meat, though not that much because I don't like it in large quantities. I've always thought I wouldn't mind being vegetarian, but I believe there is a lot of work required to be veggie and healthy, as you need to ensure you are having a balanced diet (and I'm too lazy).

I also think we've evolved over millennia to be omnivores. People would eat what they could get, not much meat, mostly veg.

I think a healthy vegan would need to be well read in how to achieve a healthy diet, and work at eating properly every day.

Veganism seems to be the 'in thing', and I'm concerned that ill-informed young people may find their health suffering in the long term.

I used to work with a man who was vegetarian - not a young man either. He didn't have a clue about a healthy diet and had a very limited interest in vegetables. Most meals seemed to consist of cheese. I did worry about him....

[Babru]

....I'm also with nickdub. What would our countryside be like with no sheep, cows, horses. Completely different, and not in a good way (to my mind).

[Snoop Puss]

If you keep your own chickens (but no cockerel) and let them free range and live out their lives, why not eat the eggs or use the poop? They would produce an egg every now and then naturally. So I personally don't see that as exploitation. You're not removing anything from them (egg or poop) that they would use themselves. Me, I even think vegans could eat eggs from their own chickens!

[Snadger]

Its all a load of c**p to me!

I haven't read through the whole thread, but what are we supposed to do, bung a cork up the animals backside so we don't contaminate our foodstuff?

I notice the farmer close to where I live has been spreading cow muck on his field before he has ploughed it. (Don't know whether he has organic status or not but I would rather he did that than apply liberal amounts of artificial fertiliser.

[Mark_Riga]

For me the clinching argument against veganism is the thought of living in a countryside where there are no farm animals at all - probably I'm old-fashioned but I like to see cows in a field, hear the chickens as they go about their chickeny ways and watch the lambs playing "king of the hill" in the fields - I'd miss all these animals if they weren't any of them around any more.

Well I live in the middle of Cheshire that was mainly dairy when I first moved here - may still be mainly dairy for all I know but I don't see many cows in the fields any more, just lots of big sheds dotted about the place and some of these are policed with bird scarers banging every 20 minutes or so dawn to dusk. As for seeing other farm animals about chicken live a few weeks mainly indoors, lambs a few months and dairy cows 3 to 5 years max.

If people would reduce their meat intake, they could still have tasty meals (butternut squash, tomatoes, garlic, herbs....) but there would also be a lot more room for the wild animals of the UK. I occasionally see stoats, weasels and ferrets near the house and Yesterday, I saw a hare in the garden for the first time ever. We often see the red bottomed woodpecker and also occasionally its red topped smaller cousin. We do get plenty of mice and rats as well but see kestrels, buzzards and barn owls as a result.

[Thelma Sanders]

https://thefarmuponthehill.com/2017/...-cow-lifespan/

[Snoop Puss]

Mark, I've liked your post because you are evidently a good-hearted person and, yes, many people could reduce their meat intake. But on this forum you're preaching to the converted about how good meals made with veg can be.

[Mark_Riga]

https://thefarmuponthehill.com/2017/...-cow-lifespan/

Obviously if the average is about 5 years, there will be some cows that greatly exceed this figure. The oldest Jersey cow recorded in UK I think is 37years. If you look at the data on:
https://dairy.ahdb.org.uk/market-inf...k-cow-numbers/

a chart there shows there are roughly 1.8million dairy cows (over period from 2011 to 2017) in the UK herd with about 1/2 a million each year aged 1 to 2 years. So there must be about 1/2 a million culled each year culled at whatever age.
Not sure how to treat the middle line in the table but it means the average age of all the cows reared for dairy is 4.6 to 5.6years. If the median age is 6.1 as thefarmothehill states, then a lot of 1 to 2 year old heifers must not make it into the herd.

Snoop Puss: "But on this forum you're preaching to the converted about how good meals made with veg can be." if you look at the thread https://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gr...ght_87555.html, there are not many meatfree meals eaten.

[SarrissUK]

Snoop Puss: "But on this forum you're preaching to the converted about how good meals made with veg can be." if you look at the thread https://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gr...ght_87555.html, there are not many meatfree meals eaten.

And that's ok This forum has influenced me to eat more veggie meals, but I'd never dream of giving up meat. I grew up on a dairy farm - I'm just a lost hope for veganism That doesn't mean I'm against it, in fact, I'm happy to be influenced and since starting to grow veg and visiting this lovely forum, I eat more veg, and less meat than ever

[Bacchus]

There are lots of good reasons to reduce our meat intake. It is healthier and it will reduce our carbon footprint on the world - never-mind all the ethical and moral arguments. I even find myself eating less meat in recent years - just because.

That said, like many others, I just don't like being preached at or told what to do so the more militant messages coming from the vegan camp tend to put me off the ideology. At the end of the day you still have to be practical and sensible. You can't even scratch your nose without killing microbes etc. Everything you eat will have some form of life in it or on it.

This thread has been a shining example of tolerance and civil discourse however.

[Derbydal]

One of the reasons why many people are currently going vegan is the amount of greenhouse gases produced by animal farming, especially cows. Cows naturally produce methane during their digestion and this is an even more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. In this sense farming cows is not sustainable in that it is helping to cause climate change.

I find it difficult to except that farming animals is causing climate change now,but all the plains animals of the past didn't! Bison Caribou & elk in north America also Zebra Wildabeast & antelope in Africa ,also the Pacaderms of India and Africa ! all these animals have been greatley reduced some to near extinction ! the thing is all these millions of animals in the past ate grass and farted but there was no talk of them burning the ozone layer away !
there seems to be a lot of veganism rearing up on social media of late ,could it be a way of using propaganda to recruite new faces ? atb Dal.

[Logunner]

I find it difficult to except that farming animals is causing climate change now,but all the plains animals of the past didn't! Bison Caribou & elk in north America also Zebra Wildabeast & antelope in Africa ,also the Pacaderms of India and Africa ! all these animals have been greatley reduced some to near extinction ! the thing is all these millions of animals in the past ate grass and farted but there was no talk of them burning the ozone layer away !
there seems to be a lot of veganism rearing up on social media of late ,could it be a way of using propaganda to recruite new faces ? atb Dal.

And before them there were Dinosaurs.... ice age anyone?

[bikermike]

no, cows emit methane, lots of it. There are lots of cows.

There probably were lots of elk farts in the past, but there was more forest/healthier seas to absorb it, and there were probably a lot less Elks than there are cows (very few cows get eaten by sabre-tooth tigers).

Also, elks only ate the food available to them. Cows eat artificially-grown stuff with lots of chemically-derived fertilisers (some of which are made from fossil carbon), so they aren't just moving round the free carbon, they are (unwittingly) extracting sequestered carbon.

Also, as you are no doubt aware, greenhouse gasses and the ozone layer are totally different issues. Unless they are using underarm deodorant, cows aren't much of a problem on that.