No dig disappointment

[Baldy]

Spread it and they will come...

Not if you've got flatworms - which is one of the things Rary ('s garden) suffers from...

[Logunner]

Not if you've got flatworms - which is one of the things Rary ('s garden) suffers from...

Oh dear not good

[rary]

('s garden) .

Thank goodness you put that bit in

[finglas]

This is an interesting post and i hope you don't mind me "reviving" it.

I have only been gardening for a few years and wold definitely consider myself a novice but in my second year I did most of my growing no-dig. It went really well and I ma really pleased with the results.

However, as has been discussed on this threat already, there does seem to be some issues with it.

I see the main issue being with establishing the beds in the beginning. As others have said, it really does take a lot of compost. Especially if you are covering rough ground. Charles does suggest removing the worst of the weeds but even starting beds on top of lawn still seems to require a good amount of compost. The youtube channel "red gardens" posted a video recently talking about clearing a rough site and estimated they would need 12 tonnes (approx) to cover 150m^2 to 3 inches deep. Granted 150m^2 is quite a big area but probably not as big as a lot of allotments. 12 tonnes of composted material would be mountains upon mountains of uncomposted material.

Getting enough compost for myself and my father to go no-dig has really taken a lot of effort, many weekends with a big trailer shifting manure. Plus some kinda farmers delivering it with a tractor and trailer and then buying some in on top of that. It does seem a big effort.

I know that then maintaining it year to year will require less compost than the initial effort so that is good. However, I don't really know how much less it does require. On Charles dowding's videos he seems to grow in a way that appears "intensive". He has small planting distances, he has succession crops and he inter-plants too. As others have said here, that requires fertility.

I have also been considering the sustainability of it all. Where does all this compost come from?
We had to cast a big net to get that compost and so in a way we are taking from elsewhere to fertilise our soil. These farms we have visited, perhaps they are farming in a way that some might consider unsustainable, for example maybe they have more cattle on their land that they can sustain "naturally" and have to use a lot of chemical fertiliser to operate and get enough hay etc to feed the cattle. It's really interesting to see some of these ideas discussed decades ago by John Seymour. I didn't know he had spoke about them until i read this thread.

In no way do i mean any of this as a citicism of no-dig, more just sharing some ideas and my experience. We have struggled to get enough compost but we did manage to grow excellent vegetables this year and I do feel the effort was worth it.

Happy new year to you all

[Snadger]

I try to practice no-dig if I possibly can (not anal about it thogh) I use very little added organic matter, sometimes just cardboard is all it gets.

Naturally if I get organic matter at a cheap price or preferably for free, I will use it but this year all my plot will get is cardboard and homemade compost made with vegetable waste from home and the plot.

[finglas]

Im the same, i would do no dig if it was easily manageable. At the weekend there i has an area of round ground maybe 35-40m^2. I just didnt have enough compost for it though to create the area no dig. So i ended up double digging it all. It left me wondering, if i go no dig on some parts but i double dig others, does it mean im digging on average? Haha

Back to the topic more specifically though,
I posted some of my thoughts on no dig and the feasibility/sustainability of it all to one of the groups facebook pages. It did get the discussion going but it wasn't well received at all. It seemed as though suggestions of potential unsustainability were taken as insulting. As a novice myself however, im just posting trying to iron out my thoughts and learn from others. I then searched google and found this thread. Charles does have very large composting bays plus heaps lying around, as far as i can tell from his videos anyway. Whatever way its cut, it seems you need a lot of compost. In one of charles videos you see him walking down the street with a wheelbarrow of manure....... one wheelbarrow? Meanwhile he has tonnes and tonnes of material compsoting at his garden. As others have said i think the issue with the compost initially is brushed over a little and as for the intensive growing afterwards, im not sure how much compost that requires year to year but id imagine its a lot.

Again though, not to deter others from going no dig, my experience of growing veg in no dig beds has been really very good. Its just getting the compost i find difficult.

All the best to you all

[toomanytommytoes]

If I had a larger area to work with, I'd probably make beds the 'lasagna' way instead of using 100% compost. Now we have a good source of autumn leaves, I don't plan on using much compost to mulch the raised beds with. Instead it'll mostly be a mixture of shredded leaves and coffee grounds, with a little compost and castings from the wormery, plus comfrey, borage and grass clippings during the summer.

[Atta]

With my no spending money on aproach and plus I would never put put manure in my car boot, with compost which I can produce only I have no choice but dig.

[veggiechicken]

Sorry Atta, but I disagree with you about having to dig. Just dig out the perennial weeds, hoe off the rest and clear the surface and plant or sow your seeds.
Cardboard makes a good surface mulch and is free.
Digging just for the sake of it doesn't make any sense to me.

[Atta]

Sorry Atta, but I disagree with you about having to dig. Just dig out the perennial weeds, hoe off the rest and clear the surface and plant or sow your seeds.
Cardboard makes a good surface mulch and is free.
Digging just for the sake of it doesn't make any sense to me.

Yea I have a cardboard (its only me on site ) I coverd most of it for winter but still I have to dig even dandelions and couch grass .I am on plot just first year and its a lot of weeds.Hopefully after time it will get less digging.I am dreading for spring As a emtpy plot beside me produced a lot of weeds which was seeding everywhere around and all this will start poping out soon,not too mention mare tails .
Shall I get more cardboard and plant more phacelia to chuck over ?

[veggiechicken]

I agree about digging out the dandelions, or at least chopping their heads off before they set seed (if you could do that on the empty plot, it might help you too). Remove as much couch grass as you can too, but there's always bits that break off and regrow, same with mare's tail.
When people talk about digging a plot, they tend to mean digging every inch and turning the soil over, sometimes double digging which is even more hard work and something I've never attempted. Basically, I'm lazy and like to take the easy route wherever possible. If I can get by without doing something, I do (like ironing)
Only you know what's growing on your plot so you're the best person to decide how to tackle it. I just wanted to say that digging isn't the only option and that "no-dig" doesn't need tonnes of manure/compost. Work with what you've got and, if its only a small compost heap, concentrate on improving the plot bit by bit, using the compost where it will be of most benefit.

[Thelma Sanders]

I posted some of my thoughts on no dig and the feasibility/sustainability of it all to one of the groups facebook pages. It did get the discussion going but it wasn't well received at all. It seemed as though suggestions of potential unsustainability were taken as insulting.

Ha! ha! That really isn't a friendly place to be - unless you stick to their script! I got muted by their moderators a couple of times before I left, I was obviously asking too many 'awkward' questions

My bed by the daleks is getting most of the HM compost this year, so I've spread that and covered it with cardboard, so I can see how no-dig works for me and my soil. I'm doubtful that this will mean less weeding tbh, but we'll see.
The rest of the plot will get the usual 6x manure and seaweed meal forked gently into the surface as usual - I know that works, but involves a lot of weeding...

[Snoop Puss]

I've tried looking into no-dig. Just about everything you read is positive, though there is a website in the UK that reports that an American university that conducted a seven-year no-dig experiment found that after four years there was a fertility crash that did not remedy itself in the following three years. But this seems an isolated event in the face of the overwhelming evidence in favour of going no-dig.

I have decided to leave almost my entire plot surface scuffed to get rid of the weeds that have got a foothold now (hoping the chickens will help me with that, as well as my trusty mattock and Mantis). I will be digging the root, leek and potato beds, but not very deeply and certainly no double digging. Too old for that. I'm also going to be adding bokashi compost directly to beds where I can, so that will involve some digging.

The bokashi will add sub-surface organic matter in places. I'll be adding hay as a surface mulch and I'll also be adding a small amount of muck, ash and chemical fertiliser. Frequent flooding a month or so ago has doubtless depleted the soil chemicals. I'll be sowing green manure in some places and planting flowers to provide some surface cover in other beds.

Bit of a mix and match approach, partly out of laziness and partly in the hope it will be effective.

[Logunner]

Yea I have a cardboard (its only me on site ) I coverd most of it for winter but still I have to dig even dandelions and couch grass .I am on plot just first year and its a lot of weeds.Hopefully after time it will get less digging.I am dreading for spring As a emtpy plot beside me produced a lot of weeds which was seeding everywhere around and all this will start poping out soon,not too mention mare tails .
Shall I get more cardboard and plant more phacelia to chuck over ?

If you can get enough cardboard then cover the neighbouring plot before any further weeds put out seeds.

[rary]

There is another point that folks need to remember if you are going the no dig gardening, the hoe is the best garden tool to keep near at hand