No dig disappointment

[veggiechicken]

Mark, I have a bag of Growmore in the shed too - unopened. Its moved house with me twice - I've no idea why as I've no intention of using it. Just seemed like the thing that every gardener used at the time. Must declutter it!

[Mark_Riga]

I keep meaning to look for my bag and use it up sparingly as I don't like to waste anything, a trait I get of my mum I think. I could put a bit on the front lawn as it is full of moss and has nearly stopped growing. but I was thinking it might make a nice, very small wild flower meadow now.

[rary]

Not sure whether you mean a "new thing" or a "newbie thing", Snadge. I don't think its a "new" thing but it tempts "newbies" because it sounds like its easy - no-dig = little effort = less weeds = fantastic veg.
But nothing is that simple or easy and the inexperienced, part time gardener will always struggle to have a plot that looks anything like CD's. Actually, the experienced, full time gardener will struggle too, but that's another story.

When I read the above, it made me think of a book I had read many years ago, before CDs and youtube, it was by John Seymour The Self-Sufficient Gardener and I think he said the no dig method had been practiced in China for many centuries

[Snadger]

When I read the above, it made me think of a book I had read many years ago, before CDs and youtube, it was by John Seymour The Self-Sufficient Gardener and I think he said the no dig method had been practiced in China for many centuries

I remember reading that book too. The problem has always been OH was never into it like I was.

If I had my ow way I would have had a Scottish croft may years ago!

[Snadger]

Not sure whether you mean a "new thing" or a "newbie thing", Snadge. I don't think its a "new" thing but it tempts "newbies" because it sounds like its easy - no-dig = little effort = less weeds = fantastic veg.
But nothing is that simple or easy and the inexperienced, part time gardener will always struggle to have a plot that looks anything like CD's. Actually, the experienced, full time gardener will struggle too, but that's another story.

I wrote a newbie thing and meant it. I realise no-dig is an eons old concept and deservedly so.

[veggiechicken]

You've a very good memory, rary, for an old person!!

Page 47
No-ploughing and no-digging The no-ploughing or no-digging theory is now very popular. The adherents of this theory claim that the land should never be ploughed or dug because it is bad to invert the soil. Inverting the soil upsets the soil life, putting surface bacteria down so deep that they die, bringing deeper organisms to the surface where they die. No-diggers and no-ploughers have great success, provided they have very large quantities of compost, or farmyard manure, with which to mulch their land. The seeds are virtually sown under a covering of compost. My own experience shows that for bringing grassland into cultivation either the plough, or the pig's snout, is essential. The next year, if you still wish to keep that land arable, you can often get away with cultivating only, or even harrowing or other shallow cultivations. The idea of very heavy mulches of compost is fine - providing you can get the compost. But the land itself will never produce enough vegetable material to make enough compost to cover itself sufficiently deeply and therefore you will have to bring vegetable matter in from outside.

[Bluenowhere]

I'm leaning towards easing the soil where the weeds aren't too bad, dig up the worst of it, then cover it with lots of material, then cardboard (that may or may not be removed in the spring, depending on the state of it).

Most of the growing next year will be in the form of plugs that I've started off in my greenhouse at home, rather than sowing direct.

It's worth a try, right? I just can't face digging a whole allotment, and if it doesn't kill my enthusiasm off, it certainly will for my friend who has not grown much before.

Absolutely, worth it.

Fork over the best bits - likely the raised beds, weed them cover over winter (as you say) and start planting anything that needs direct sowing like root veg in those as well as plugs.

Dig what you can, the bits that look like they need it but aren’t the really nasty compacted and difficult bits. Cover over winter. Then plant in them, plugs as you say.

Cover the worst bits, either because they are compacted or with weeds you can’t face dealing with yet or both. Ideally with manure then the robust weed matting or cardboard (remember to weight it down).

Next year when you have stuff growing in the better bits you can lift the cardboard or membrane start digging or forking over the worst bits one small section at a time. I personally would go with the membrane as you can lift, dig a small section even if literally 1m by 1m then put it back down, I did a little bit most evenings after work as well as other things so it wasn’t as hard or demoralising. Then plant when you have a big enough space and if early enough in the year or cover them as before.

Certainly don’t try and dig the whole thing at the expense of your motivation and getting things growing. I wager ever the keenest digger wouldn’t advocate that.

For the record you sound like you don’t expect no dig to be a miracle worker so that’s a very good start.

The mantra with a overgrown full plot when you work is slowly slowly catchy monkey (as my nan used to say).

We are lucky to get massive deliveries of manure from the police stables (dustbin lorry sized) and wood chip from a local tree surgeon but on a site with over 100 plots both go fast, sometimes within a day of the delivery which is hard if you work as it’s all gone by the weekend - those retired folks are very fit clearly, we have been at the allotment in the near dark on an evening to make sure we get some for ourselves before now! Sadly the council isn’t interested in disposing of the leaves via the allotments but our friends save some for us personally.

[Mark_Riga]

Well I've only got his 'New self-sufficient Gardener' from 1978.It doesn't mention the Chinese but says '...if one plot of land is using this technique it is robbing another plot of land which is either being flogged with chemicals or being left unproductive.'

[veggiechicken]

This is from Natural-Way-Of-Farming-Masanobu-Fukuoka

That is essentially all there is to the method of natural farming I call “direct-seeded, no-tillage, winter grain/rice succession in a clover cover.” Were I to say that all my method of farming boils down to is the symbiosis of rice and barley or wheat in clover, I would probably be reproached: “If that’s all there is to growing rice, then farmers wouldn’t be out there working so hard in their fields.” Yet, that is all there is to it. Indeed, with this method I have consistently gotten better-thanaverage yields. Such being the case, the only conclusion possible is that there must be something drastically wrong with farming practices that require so much unnecessary labor. Scientists are always saying, “Let’s try this, let’s try that.” Agriculture becomes swept up in all of this fiddling around; new methods requiring additional expenditures and effort by farmers are constantly introduced, along with new pesticides and fertilizers. As for me, I have taken the opposite tack. I eliminate unnecessary practices, expenditures, and labor by telling myself, “I don’t need to do this, I don’t need to do that.” After thirty years at it, I have managed to reduce my labor to essentially just sowing seed and spreading straw. Human effort is unnecessary because nature, not man, grows the rice and wheat.

[SarrissUK]

Well I've only got his 'New self-sufficient Gardener' from 1978.It doesn't mention the Chinese but says '...if one plot of land is using this technique it is robbing another plot of land which is either being flogged with chemicals or being left unproductive.'

I'm not sure how true that is.... other than a couple of bags of bought in compost a year, my little back garden is certainly self sufficient in providing that material, that is enough to mulch all of the growing area. After the first year, I'd be very surprised if the allotment doesn't produce enough mulch to cover the beds every year. The only thing I think we might struggle with is the paths, to keep them weed free, we need wood chippings which the allotment can't produce itself.

It will be interesting to see... the proof will be in the pudding for me

[rary]

You've a very good memory, rary, for an old person!!

Page 47
No-ploughing and no-digging The no-ploughing or no-digging theory is now very popular. The adherents of this theory claim that the land should never be ploughed or dug because it is bad to invert the soil. Inverting the soil upsets the soil life, putting surface bacteria down so deep that they die, bringing deeper organisms to the surface where they die. No-diggers and no-ploughers have great success, provided they have very large quantities of compost, or farmyard manure, with which to mulch their land. The seeds are virtually sown under a covering of compost. My own experience shows that for bringing grassland into cultivation either the plough, or the pig's snout, is essential. The next year, if you still wish to keep that land arable, you can often get away with cultivating only, or even harrowing or other shallow cultivations. The idea of very heavy mulches of compost is fine - providing you can get the compost. But the land itself will never produce enough vegetable material to make enough compost to cover itself sufficiently deeply and therefore you will have to bring vegetable matter in from outside.

I can remember some things VC, was there not a thank you to you for proofreading the book for him?
But he does highlight the problem associated with no dig gardening that I have never heard CD mention though to be fair I have not watched all his videos

[Jay-ell]

When I read the above, it made me think of a book I had read many years ago, before CDs and youtube, it was by John Seymour The Self-Sufficient Gardener and I think he said the no dig method had been practiced in China for many centuries

The Chinese also have a long tradition of using night soil as a fertiliser so there's another unused organic source you can utilise.

[Jay-ell]

I'm sure Charlie mentioned in one of his videos that he can't produce the amount of compost he needs so he imports cow manure.

[mothhawk]

You've a very good memory, rary, for an old person!!

Page 47
No-ploughing and no-digging The no-ploughing or no-digging theory is now very popular. The adherents of this theory claim that the land should never be ploughed or dug because it is bad to invert the soil. Inverting the soil upsets the soil life, putting surface bacteria down so deep that they die, bringing deeper organisms to the surface where they die. No-diggers and no-ploughers have great success, provided they have very large quantities of compost, or farmyard manure, with which to mulch their land. The seeds are virtually sown under a covering of compost. My own experience shows that for bringing grassland into cultivation either the plough, or the pig's snout, is essential. The next year, if you still wish to keep that land arable, you can often get away with cultivating only, or even harrowing or other shallow cultivations. The idea of very heavy mulches of compost is fine - providing you can get the compost. But the land itself will never produce enough vegetable material to make enough compost to cover itself sufficiently deeply and therefore you will have to bring vegetable matter in from outside.

...But he does highlight the problem associated with no dig gardening that I have never heard CD mention though to be fair I have not watched all his videos

You dig, you leave the soil uncovered. You don't dig, you leave the soil uncovered.

You dig, and bury the compost and leave the soil uncovered. You don't dig, you spread the compost on the surface.

There seems to be a misconception that digging makes the soil more fertile. It doesn't. Both methods need the addition of compost to replace the fertility removed by cropping the plot. So to say that the no-dig method is not viable because you can't make enough compost to cover the ground is misleading.

If you dig the ground you still have to add compost, but you have also chopped up worms, broken their aerating tunnels, broken up and disturbed the fungal spread that mainstream gardening is finally coming to realize is important to plant and soil health, and sunk the compost to a level not readily accessible to early root growth of seeds and seedlings.

As far as I can see, the only benefit of digging is to let a lot of air into the soil, (which the worms were patiently doing with their tunnels and pulling surface litter down into the soil), for removal of perennial weed roots, brick ends and the like, and for exercise (and backache). Lifting potatoes is all the digging needed.

[bikermike]

Well I've only got his 'New self-sufficient Gardener' from 1978.It doesn't mention the Chinese but says '...if one plot of land is using this technique it is robbing another plot of land which is either being flogged with chemicals or being left unproductive.'

I think there are two counter-arguments
1) in a suburban context there are vast amounts of "unproductive" land (from a vegetable growing point of view); and
2) the more the role of invertebrates and other natur processes are understood, it's possibly more that it is the chemical-soaked land that is getting the benefit of the worms ec from the no-dig land

on (1) I'm getting compost materials from 2 gardens, as well as free-issue woodchip to drive my compost heap.