Growing fruit trees - Organic vs Un-treated

[orangepippin]

In answer to questions above, the University of Minnesota licence for Honeycrisp has expired so anyone can propagate it. Since it has a rather unusual pedigree (not closely related to the mainstream Cox / Golden Delicious et al) as well as a lot of very desirable characteristics, it would be a good choice to use in any breeding "programme" - or just planting seeds to see what you get.

In my experience, both here and in the US, Honeycrisp is a consistent and good performer. The apples we grew here in East Yorkshire (with no spraying whatsoever) looked and tasted great, and were very similar to apples we tasted in Pennsylvania, New York, and Virginia last autumn.

I'm sure it has its flaws, I've already mentioned we experienced some mildew, but it was one of our best producing trees in the very difficult conditions of last season. The disease resistance is certainly a desirable feature because it means you can easily grow it without spraying, but for me the main reason to grow it is that it is just a nice apple with a well-balanced flavour and, as the name suggests, a really crisp bite.

[orangepippin]

I still think that it won't turn out to be a "wonder-variety" - I've seen enough of these released over the years to know that the breeding stations have to sell new varieties to keep them in business.
I think that further field trials will reveal problems for home-growers - in addition to the known problem of mildew.

Honeycrisp is effectively 40+ years old now. The licence has expired so there is now little commercial input from the breeding station (University of Minnesota) - they are busy pushing new varieties like SweeTango.

The field trials finished decades ago, so there is nothing new to be revealed.

It's been sold in the USA to gardeners for many years and its features and problems in the backyard orchard are well understood, from New York to Los Angeles. From my limited knowledge I believe it is in the top 5 varieties sold by retail tree nurseries in the US which offer it.

The only big unknown with Honeycrisp is whether it will be as successful in the climate of north western Europe, where light levels are less than much of the USA. My own limited experience is that it does very well - it ripens at the end of September, probably the optimum time for the UK.

[orangepippin]

Jazz is a good variety which is also patented, a shame because I'd grow it if it wasn't. If you see it growing anywhere then it depends how closely you follow the law as to whether or not you decide to sneak a cutting. T
here aren't really commercial orchards in my part of the world sadly.

I would also like to grow Jazz, which I think is probably still the best-flavoured of all supermarket apples and will give many a traditional variety a run for its money.

Unfortunately the signs are Jazz will not grow well here. It needs a much longer season than we can offer, even in Kent. I've often noticed that English-grown Jazz apples lack the colour and flavour of ones grown in the more amenable climate of the Loire valley. Its parents are Braeburn and Gala, and whilst Gala will grow almost anywhere (but needs full sun) Braeburn is difficult to ripen in the UK.

[FB.]

From my limited knowledge I believe it is in the top 5 varieties sold by retail tree nurseries in the US which offer it.

Consumers tend to buy what they know, or varieties they've tasted and enjoyed but cant easily find in the shop.
Consumers have a tendency to choose varieties which are difficult to grow - the varieties being difficult because they are so widely grown or because they are commercial varieties not necessarily bred with backyard growers in mind.

The most popular plum in the UK is, apparently, Victoria - and it's also one of the most disease-prone.

[Marcher]

Consumers tend to buy what they know, or varieties they've tasted and enjoyed but cant easily find in the shop.
Consumers have a tendency to choose varieties which are difficult to grow - the varieties being difficult because they are so widely grown or because they are commercial varieties not necessarily bred with backyard growers in mind.

The most popular plum in the UK is, apparently, Victoria - and it's also one of the most disease-prone.

Victoria is a lot better than the "Angelano" c**p or whatever else it is Tesco sell. Agh, some of the c**p coming out of the southern hemisphere over winter! I suppose most of them are bred for keeping qualities and appearance even more than European grown fruit.

[FB.]

Victoria is a lot better than the "Angelano" crap....

I didn't comment on the taste or quality of Victoria's fruit - my point was that it is popular as a garden tree because it's what people know. Unfortunately, because it has been popular for a long time, it has become particularly disease-prone and can be difficult to keep healthy.

[boundtothesoil]

In answer to questions above, the University of Minnesota licence for Honeycrisp has expired so anyone can propagate it. Since it has a rather unusual pedigree (not closely related to the mainstream Cox / Golden Delicious et al) as well as a lot of very desirable characteristics, it would be a good choice to use in any breeding "programme" - or just planting seeds to see what you get.

Thanks, that's useful to know. I can see from the recent posts that there are two very different views concerning the virtues, or otherwise, of Honeycrisp - your posts #74, #77 and #91 on the positive side and FB's #87 and #88 on the negative side. The short paper on 'Post harvest Quality and Handling of Honeycrisp' referenced by FB does make for gruesome reading. On the other hand, all varieties have pros and cons don't they. Given what you say about the lack of information on the performance of Honeycrisp in Northern Europe, I'm still tempted to try one out (on a heavy wet clay soil). The results are sure to be interesting, even if it fails to thrive. Besides, I'm becoming obsessed with Codling Moth and, if as FB quotes, Honeycrisp acts as a magnet for them, then I'm in for years of pleasurable conflict.

[Marcher]

I didn't comment on the taste or quality of Victoria's fruit - my point was that it is popular as a garden tree because it's what people know. Unfortunately, because it has been popular for a long time, it has become particularly disease-prone and can be difficult to keep healthy.

Yes, it's a pain but at this rate we'll need a new variety of apple, plum and pear ever 10 years if we want to keep ahead of disease. People are fussy and like what they like, they don't want a variety which they don't know because they fear getting something that they don't like.
I'm taking my chances with it anyway (yes, I have it ). It seems to do well on clay soil and hasn't been hit by anything yet, not like Elstar apple which I'm considering removing (or ring barking and growing a rose up it). That's the last time I read any "expert" books - I already disagree with most of the grape varieties listed. My knowledge of apples isn't so great though so I just went by the book and the only warning was "may be biennial bearing, not for beginners", so I got it because biennial bearing didn't scare me, little did I know its poor disease resistance.



To the moderator - sorry, didn't realise it was a swear word. It's only a mild one.

[Marcher]

Regarding new apple varieties - there are a lot of trees from discarded cores around here. I've tasted a few to see if there were any good ones I could propagate and patent, but sadly no.
There's an obvious golden delicious seedling. It tastes much less sweet but like its probable parent, but is much smaller. Oh well, no royalties yet it seems. I'd only patent for a few years and then let it go public domain.

[FB.]

.......all varieties have pros and cons don't they......

Yes, almost all varieties have an "issue" of some kind.

It's often a question of whether the issue is acceptable to the grower (or can be easily overcome) based on how and where they intend to grow the tree.

In some areas certain varieties don't often have their weaknesses tested, so can appear to be the perfect variety. But take them elsewhere and they collapse under the local pests and diseases - or a dislike of the climate.

[FB.]

Yes, it's a pain but at this rate we'll need a new variety of apple, plum and pear ever 10 years if we want to keep ahead of disease.

But what happens "in the wild"? Sexual reproduction gives new combinations of health and vigour with every season's batch of pips. In the wild, new apple varieties are created every year, and this keeps the wild population from becoming exctinct because if gives such genetic diversity that the pests and diseases are always trying to play catch-up.
When we propagate (clone) the same variety for long enough, the pests and diseases are given the time they need to catch up.

Mature trees produce thousands of seeds (pips) per year. A few turn out to be tough enough to survive. Over 99% are too weak, too sickly or have some other "issue" which causes nature to euthanase them.

I currently have no seedlings remaining alive from many years worth of punishing tests. I could have nurtured them all, but instead I chose to test their resilience in the same way as mother nature only allows the finest few seedlings of any tree to survive.

(I might still have a few seedlings growing in the grass, or under their mother tree, and I plan to plant a new batch of seedlings as soon as the ground thaws).

[Marcher]

But what happens "in the wild"? Sexual reproduction gives new combinations of health and vigour with every season's batch of pips. In the wild, new apple varieties are created every year, and this keeps the wild population from becoming exctinct because if gives such genetic diversity that the pests and diseases are always trying to play catch-up.
When we propagate (clone) the same variety for long enough, the pests and diseases are given the time they need to catch up.

Mature trees produce thousands of seeds (pips) per year. A few turn out to be tough enough to survive. Over 99% are too weak, too sickly or have some other "issue" which causes nature to euthanase them.

I currently have no seedlings remaining alive from many years worth of punishing tests. I could have nurtured them all, but instead I chose to test their resilience in the same way as mother nature only allows the finest few seedlings of any tree to survive.

(I might still have a few seedlings growing in the grass, or under their mother tree, and I plan to plant a new batch of seedlings as soon as the ground thaws).

In the wild very few seedlings turn out to be the next Cox's or Golden Delicious though.

[FB.]

In the wild very few seedlings turn out to be the next Cox's or Golden Delicious though.

Absolutely. Of the few that nature determined to be strong enough to survive, only a small proportion will have fruit of the highest quality.
So 99% of seedlings may not be tough enough to survive, and 99% of the survivors may not have fruit of any outstanding qualities.

Alternatively, you could skip the natural selection process and hope for the one-in-a-hundred chance of a great new variety. You'll just have to "make do" with whatever weaknesses it has.

Or do what I do: plant hundreds of seedlings each year, and let the pests and diseases whittle them down to just a few.
The few survivors then get a chance to fruit if they survive long enough.
If the fruit is not good they will be disposed of, or perhaps considered as a rootstock.

If the survivors produce good fruit, I'll have produced probably the closest thing to the perfect variety.

[yummersetter]

and then you send one to me . . . . and I test that perfection in the Southwest! Bet I know the outcome . . .

[FB.]

and then you send one to me . . . . and I test that perfection in the Southwest! Bet I know the outcome . . .

A bit like "plants for places" - such as fuschias.
They're a little too winter-cold-sensitive, a little too drought sensitive and a little too alkaline sensitive to thrive in this area. But I've seen lots of them in their native SouthWest.

But of the varieties I grow and find to be mostly trouble-free, Beauty of Bath is OK down your way, as is Jupiter, as is Ashmead's Kernel. So some varieties can tolerate a wide range of soils and climates.