Growing fruit trees - Organic vs Un-treated

[FB.]

I would also suggest that neighbouring rows are both a different cultivar and a different rootstock.

So a row of M25 then a row of MM111, then another row of M25.
Matching scion vigour to soil, climate and rootstock should still mean that all trees can be of similar size, growth rate and cropping.

This alternation between rows is to make if more difficult for the spread of airborne and soil-borne, cultivar-adapted strains of disease.

Scab on a row of trees? No problem - the rows to the East and West are not the same scion variety and generally have partial or high-level resistance to diseases from other cultivars.

Crown rot attacking the roots of one row of trees? No problem - the rows to the East and the West are on a different rootstock; partial or high-level resistance to diseases from other rootstocks.

Even consider "own root" or seedling stocks to help keep pests and diseases at bay for as long as possible (since both own root and seedling are genetically distinct from modern "cloned" rootstocks, so should show partial resistance to diseases which attack the cloned rootstocks).

[orangepippin]

I don't have the figures to hand at the moment, but about 10 years ago we started a new commercial orchard from scratch. It was of course a massive learning experience (next time I will buy a laser-guided tractor ...). For various reasons (not commercial) we are no longer directly involved. I would say that if you are prepared to work hard then Yummersetter is right - this *is* a good time to try a project like this. Some quick points:

I think it works best in affluent areas outside the main commercial orchard areas - so in our case the "golden triangle" around Leeds. You'll have a ready market of well-informed customers wanting to buy "local food", and your only competition will be local farm shops selling Granny Smiths year round :-)

Plant dwarf trees. You'll get a crop in the 2nd year - not enough to make a living, but more than enough to run an apple day festival. This will start to create the local buzz and awareness that is so important.

You don't necessarily have to buy land, you can rent it to get started, and you don't need that much land either. 1-2 acres will do.

We also got some grant funding, not sure if that is still possible, but the application process was a very useful discipline because we had to be able to demonstrate a positive cashflow.

Don't just rely on selling apples. That might sound odd, but when did you last see someone buying a plant at a garden centre - as opposed to having a coffee, or buying Xmas decorations? The apples / orchard are what draws people to visit, but it is the added-value items - tours, talks, apple crumble, jam, juice etc. - where you will more likely make a profit.

We also did not do this full-time, so in effect we cross-subsidised the first few years with income from other jobs. You are not going to get rich, and you won't be able to compete with the high-tech commercial orchards in Kent, but small-scale commercial orchards are certainly a potentially viable business IMHO.

[FB.]

A couple of years ago, the following property only a few miles from me, caught my attention and I um'd and ah'd about it.
It has been unused for probably ten years, maybe more. It was rather more overgrown and tatty at the time.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...uvv_iDIcuXeVTA

[boundtothesoil]

What kind of costings would you envisage?
..............it would require ten acres or more to pay its owner the national average wage.

I'm sure you are right about the costs etc of setting up commercially and trying to make it your sole source of income. Not a very attractive/viable option for the majority of amateur apple growers and gardeners. However, returning to the 'grey' area between gardening and commercial production, I'd still argue that 'marketing' (selling or giving away) your surplus fruit is something that almost everybody with one or more productive trees could have a go at. Their aim could simply be charitable, or designed to make a few extra quid, or to make a small contribution to advancing the cause of locally sourced food. The economics are irrelevant if you are not trying to make your living from it (hence my allusion to 5 million pensioners in a previous comment). In fact , if you don't mind what you sell fruit for, it puts you in an enviable economic position in terms of being able to 'poke a stick' at the 'monopolist supermarkets'. They might be able to sell a kilo of apples for £1, but if I sell a kilo of my spare apples to a local shop for 25p a kilo, then they can sell them for 50p a kilo (100% mark up -not bad) and undercut the local supermarket. That's a good deal for everyone concerned (except the commercial grower): I feel good about supplying a little food to my local community, the retailer can advertise 'local produce' at very competitive prices and the consumer gets a bargain, locally, (and without pesticide residues if it's grown organically or untreated!!).

You only need one good tree and 10 kg of spare apples in good condition, plus the confidence to go into a shop and say 'would you like to buy my apples?' Incidently, it took me two years to pluck up the courage to do the latter, and then it was only after watching one of those 'Jimmy's farm' TV programs, where he helped a market gardener to sell his produce direct to shops and restaurants in his local town for the first time. I don't know why I was such a wimp, because there is a real interest/demand for locally produced heritage varieties, albeit in small quantities in my limited situation, particularly if they are in good condition and not overpriced.

[Marcher]

I see what you're saying 'boundtothesoil', and it is a good idea.

I'd suggest that in some places it would be just as good to sell at the gate though. We did that with eggs for years and left an honesty box there. It was only rarely that some got taken without around a quid being left. I think after a while though we'd probably see some stupid scare in the Daily Mail about health & safety being tough on people doing this if it became mainstream.
I see it done occasionally around here still and it is certainly done in other countries. We should encourage home growers to sell any surplus at the gate. Not only food though, but also plants. I have been tempted to sell seedling cordylines at the gate before and I've seen cut sweet peas and a few veg and pumpkins sold at gates in the countryside around here.

It'd be nice to see at least a few veg and some fruit growing in almost every garden one day, and plenty of people selling at the gate or swapping one thing for another.

[veggiechicken]

I used to sell my surplus plants, veggies, fruit, eggs and honey at the gate, with a note asking buyers to put the money through the letter box. When I cut back the bay trees and rosemary I always put the cuttings outside the gate with a "Help yourself" note. It always goes It doesn't matter to me who has it, as long as its not going to waste.
And, for the record, I've never had anything pinched, in fact sometimes the money was left with little notes saying - its worth more so we've left more

[Marcher]

I don't really care so much about the money so long as surplus doesn't go to waste and I at least get something as a thank you. It's not a way of getting rich.

[boundtothesoil]

I'd suggest that in some places it would be just as good to sell at the gate though. We did that with eggs for years and left an honesty box there. It was only rarely that some got taken without around a quid being left. I think after a while though we'd probably see some stupid scare in the Daily Mail about health & safety being tough on people doing this if it became mainstream.
I see it done occasionally around here still and it is certainly done in other countries. .

I agree with you and veggiechicken on this. There are quite a lot of people selling eggs in this way in my part of West wales. I was under the impression that the health & Safety issues aren't significant if you are offering/selling unprocessed fruit and veg 'straight from the soil'. Problems might be more likely from the tax angle, if you were considered to be 'full time' and running a business.

My emphasis on supplying 'local shops' is partly down to the severe threat that they are under in so many places. Many obviously need help to survive against the supermarkets. I know that in a few cases the local commiunity has taken over the running along cooperative or other lines, but the majority limp on along traditional lines, probably buying much of their stock from local cash & carry or supermarket. Selling them good quality, locally grown produce, at a low price, could help in these instances. Most communities have an army of potential (part-time/gardener/allotment) producers, of all ages. However, the best way of enthusing and mobilising this army is unclear to me. Maybe it is happening in schemes such as the Cardiff one veggiechicken mentions.

[veggiechicken]

Exactly Marcher! The egg money used to cover their feed, same with the honey money and the plant sales went into the gardening kitty. They just offset the costs, no profit!!

[sugar]

0,2 £/kg is for traditional culture. Organic grown fruit is sold at higher prices (often direct, locally).

[Marcher]

I think little co-operatives of home growers selling to local shops would work well. Probably better than half a dozen people turning up with crops to sell.

[boundtothesoil]

0,2 £/kg is for traditional culture. Organic grown fruit is sold at higher prices (often direct, locally).

Too right! For a couple of years I have followed the price paid to organically certified growers by one of the larger organic fruit & veg wholesalers based near Lampeter and it seems to range between £1- £1.50p per kg, even up to £2 ex farm. That's a lot of money.

If you google something like 'organic apples for sale', there a very few entries whatsoever, and the one or two national internet-sales companies flagged up often charge customers more than £3 per kg. Most of the year they don't have any Uk-produced apples anyway!

[boundtothesoil]

. I have heard of organic orchards switching to non-organic for a few years, in order to bring pests and diseases under control..

I don't know whether you have seen it, but there is an interesting account by Stephen Hayes on his fruitwise internet site of his experiences setting up a 5 acre orchard in Hampshire from scratch and deciding to abandon organic production techniques due to increasing pest and disease problems. His section on these also has some nice photos - a bit depressing really if you are an untreated/unsprayed advocate.

see: pestsanddiseases

However, from reading his orchard planting scheme I don't think he tried out your suggestions for combating pests and diseases with alternating rootstocks/disease resistance varieties in his row planting.

[sugar]

I purchase all my trees from a single nursery that grows its trees 100% organic. The owner of the nursery emphasizes the importance of the rootstocks he's using, the fruit varieties he's selling,... He also plants local trees around the orchards to ensure a correct environment.
He's capable of selling his trees at exactly the same prize as his less organic competitors...

As for the article of Fruitwise, some elements he points out are real problems. But some are not. As I wrote before, coddling moth is no issue. There is a virus for sale that kills every single one of them. Aphids can be kept under control by not overfeeding the trees and ladybugs or predaceous mites.
Canker and scab can be kept under control by planting adjusted varieties (a local university tested hundreds of varieties over several years and selected 20 fruit varieties being almost resistent to scab and canker). Even then, you will occasionally have issues. But by immediately spraying, you lose a lot

I'm not British, It's possible I underestimate the impact of the British climate on scab and canker
.

[Marcher]

I purchase all my trees from a single nursery that grows its trees 100% organic. The owner of the nursery emphasizes the importance of the rootstocks he's using, the fruit varieties he's selling,... He also plants local trees around the orchards to ensure a correct environment.
He's capable of selling his trees at exactly the same prize as his less organic competitors...

As for the article of Fruitwise, some elements he points out are real problems. But some are not. As I wrote before, coddling moth is no issue. There is a virus for sale that kills every single one of them. Aphids can be kept under control by not overfeeding the trees and ladybugs or predaceous mites.
Canker and scab can be kept under control by planting adjusted varieties (a local university tested hundreds of varieties over several years and selected 20 fruit varieties being almost resistent to scab and canker). Even then, you will occasionally have issues. But by immediately spraying, you lose a lot

I'm not British, It's possible I underestimate the impact of the British climate on scab and canker
.

The climate in the east isn't much different from Belgium, the Netherlands is probably wetter than much of eastern England.