Plot Sizes

[Hazel at the Hill]

I understand the point that people make about splitting plots as it can be a lot to take on but I'd have been devastated to have to have proved myself on a half plot in order to be offered a larger one and move away from the work that I'd carried out to get the first plot established.

Yes, I can see that, putting work into a half plot and then being required to move next season. However, as long as you know that you are 'on probation' and have been given a smaller plot to see if (a) having an allotment is what you thought that it was going to be and (b) whether you can cope; one growing season is not so long, and will give you a taste of what you can do, and - frankly - what you would do differently next year! All the 12months probation means, I think, is that you don't put in any permanent crops or invest a lot in - say - raised beds.

Hopefully the 'starter plot' will be in good order which will get you off to a flying start - the alternative is to be chucked in at the deep end with a full plot. Great if you are keen and have a bit of help - if there are two of you, or a willing bunch of family and friends or you know you can put in a heap of hours per week - but how demoralising would it be to be a novice on your own to take on an entire plot, which may well be overgrown when you have only enough hours to commit to cope with a smaller area.

Yes, a 250sqm overgrown plot can be turned round by a total beginner with lots of time and hard work - and many grapes to their great credit have done so - but a whole overgrown plot that new plotters make a stab at for a couple of years, then give up just for a new novice to start all over again with the same result is unsatisfactory for all - disillusioned would be plotters, and a perpetually half-worked unproductive full plots.

[Hazel at the Hill]

Alison,

Good for you - there seems to be a wide disparity across the country with some Councils having no problems in providing good sized plots whereas others want to cram as many people in as possible - we really need legislation that makes all Councils offer suitable plot sizes people want - Hazel's site seems to represent the best of both worlds and I would like to see similar arrangements here - I am hopeful we will succeed as I understand our neighbouring site refused to allow Council to do what they have been doing here.

I think that the reason that Councils put pressure on sites/committees to split plots is primarily in order to alleviate waiting lists - i.e. they want to extricate themselves from the hassle that they get from keen beggars wanting to get a plot being on the damn phone all the while!

I suspect that Councils are more bothered about getting allotment sites to be all self managed (which all of Birmingham sites will be WEF April 2014) so that they have to commit fewer staff in this current climate rather than being concerned about the revenue from each site, which is small beer really in the scheme of things.

In Birmingham we have the largest provision of allotments of any local authority in the UK with 115 allotment sites and nearly 7,000 plots. Until a couple of years ago we had three allotment officers to manage that lot, and now we have just one.

The income generated from full vs half/smaller plots is more attractive to the Council, of course - certainly in B'ham the fees for a half plot are more than half of that for a full plot - but even so, the extra for smaller plots if imposed across the board would (maybe) only re-employ the two officers who were made redundant a couple of years ago, so we'd only be back to square one.

I suspect that Binley's input would be helpful here, Shen, as their site in Coventry is a model of how a determination and committed committee and other plotters can make for a thriving site. I suggest that you drop her a PM as she may not have seen the thread, and ask her for her thoughts.

[Alison]

Yes, I can see that, putting work into a half plot and then being required to move next season. However, as long as you know that you are 'on probation' and have been given a smaller plot to see if (a) having an allotment is what you thought that it was going to be and (b) whether you can cope; one growing season is not so long, and will give you a taste of what you can do, and - frankly - what you would do differently next year! All the 12months probation means, I think, is that you don't put in any permanent crops or invest a lot in - say - raised beds.

Hopefully the 'starter plot' will be in good order which will get you off to a flying start - the alternative is to be chucked in at the deep end with a full plot. Great if you are keen and have a bit of help - if there are two of you, or a willing bunch of family and friends or you know you can put in a heap of hours per week - but how demoralising would it be to be a novice on your own to take on an entire plot, which may well be overgrown when you have only enough hours to commit to cope with a smaller area.

Yes, a 250sqm overgrown plot can be turned round by a total beginner with lots of time and hard work - and many grapes to their great credit have done so - but a whole overgrown plot that new plotters make a stab at for a couple of years, then give up just for a new novice to start all over again with the same result is unsatisfactory for all - disillusioned would be plotters, and a perpetually half-worked unproductive full plots.

To be honest I can see both sides but the hours and hours I spend doing back breaking digging in my first year is still a benefit several years on, I would have hated for this to have been in vain. In theory I had help of a friend but she did very little and I do by far the bulk of it. What I am really saying is that there needs to be choice, I was given an option between a half plot and a full plot (thankfully there are no quarter sized ones here as I see that as more of an area to play at growing not really in the spirit of an allotment), thought about it and went for what was right for me. I spoke to the lady at the Parish Council and told her that I wouldn't be able to get it all under control in a single year but did manage to get about 3/4 of it cropped-up so to speak, I am very proud of this. Had I had a starter plot which was in good condition to start with it would not have prepared me for the larger scale model of the over grown full sized plot or demonstrated that I was remotely capable of undertaking such a task. However for somebody else it might be ideal, I think what I have a problem with is that on many plots there is no choice anymore and I'm very happy that my site is much more flexible and talks to people and gives them options.

[Sheneval]

(thankfully there are no quarter sized ones here as I see that as more of an area to play at growing not really in the spirit of an allotment

I think you have hit the nail on the head - I currently have what you would call a quarter plot -fortunately my daughter also got her half plot, (quarter plot) last year and we had the kid's plots and I was helping on another half plot, (quarter plot) so had sufficient room to grow a variety of crops including sweet corn but not enough for a family of 4.

Being a bit more experienced now I should be able to get more out of the available space this year but not much as only the peas did not perform well last year and all the other beds were pretty well filled

[alldigging]

I think that the reason that Councils put pressure on sites/committees to split plots is primarily in order to alleviate waiting lists -

We've split plots because that's what people wanted.
Not everyone wants a full plot or can manage one.

We didn't sort out all the issues though and now it's possible that a plot could be split into 4 and everyone would want a shed and a greenhouse.

[polc1410]

If a private firm decided to reduce the service they offered you by half in order to boost the numbers of their customer satisfaction levels would you not consider that sharp practice - surely the answer is the increase the amount of goods you have available?

If they can do this once would it be ok to do it again and if not why not?

If a private company only had a limited amount of resource they would likely listen to the customers and decide what to do. Up the price to reduce the demand? Split plots to meet demand? Offer a range of sizes etc...?

My plot (something like 55ft x 20ft; 16.7m x 6m: 100sqm) is half of a previous plot. I guess the previous plot was 10rod and I'm supposed to be 5rod but either I measured badly or I got the smaller half or paths mean I loose a bit!

The 1922 Act defines a maximum size of 40 rod but doesn't specify a minimum.

2adults & 1 child in my family and I'd say 5 rod is enough, 10 would be more than I need. I gather that when 10rods are being free'd up they are being split.

But if I want 10 rod all I have to do is add my name back on the waiting list again. That opens a whole debate if I should get an extra 5rod over someone within none.

I'm definitely not a Solomon! I think my views are the minority and will be unpopular, but I can't leave them unvoiced. I completely support proxies for relatively 'short' periods - eg 1 or 2 seasons, because people have babies, become ill, have other family/work issues etc.

In my opinion there should be some form of regular review by the Committee for these arrangements and this shouldn't go on for years just because the existing tenant doesn't want to or can't work their plot anymore, but doesn't want to give it up. Which is what I think needs addressing.

Under the law the plot is "wholly or mainly cultivated by the occupier for the production of vegetable or fruit crops for consumption by himself or his family" (I love 1922 law where the occupier appears to be male!!)
The law doesn't define cultivated. Does cultivated include employing someone else to cultivate? Would Grandad coming to the plot and directing the kids and Grandkids how to do stuff but not actually being fit himself still count as cultivation?

I don't think this is easily police-able. Our allotment rent is collected by the Parish Council Clerk knocking on your door. So you have to still live in the Parish.

Would I take on someone elses plot for a year if they might return... not sure -> I wanted to instantly make changes to mine the day I got it. Those are changes that will take 3-4 years for me to get the benefit. If it was a friend and I was doing them a favour yes. If it was that I was gaining a plot then I'm not a fan of moving plot.

[Sheneval]

polc - Thanks for your response but you did not reply to the second half of my quote which I will explain more fully below:

"If the Council can legally reduce the full plots they advertise by half from 150sqm to between 60sqm - 75sqm why can't they do the same thing again to meet new demand and if you think not why not?

In your case looks as if they have reduced from 250sqm (10 rods) to 5 rods while in mine they have reduced from 5 rods to 2.5 rods so why not the next step 2.5 rods to 1.25 rods as they have already opened two new sites in adjacent towns with exactly that measurement.

Your would not be given an additional plot here unless there was no waiting list whatsoever and plots were lying empty, or a plot was so overgrown no one else would take it. We have had two or three of the latter for the last two years. In fact this year we could end up with 4 or 5 of them - it will be interesting to see how those on the waiting list react when offered these plots - for the last two years most of the waiting list disappeared when letting time came round and last year three people who had accepted overgrown plots gave up within weeks of taking them on and these plots have been empty until now.

[polc1410]

you did not reply to the second half of my quote which I will explain more fully below:

"If the Council can legally reduce the full plots they advertise by half from 150sqm to between 60sqm - 75sqm why can't they do the same thing again to meet new demand and if you think not why not?

In your case looks as if they have reduced from 250sqm (10 rods) to 5 rods while in mine they have reduced from 5 rods to 2.5 rods so why not the next step 2.5 rods to 1.25 rods as they have already opened two new sites in adjacent towns with exactly that measurement.

Your would not be given an additional plot here unless there was no waiting list whatsoever and plots were lying empty, or a plot was so overgrown no one else would take it.

Does this Scottish Legislation Consltation Document Help? http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0043/00437675.pdf

So you don't yet have a definition but it looks likely to me that you will get a definition "up there" and that will be no less than 60sqm which would be about 2.5rod. That said there is a good bit in there about 250sqm being optimal size for a family of 4.

Thinking on my feet here. If you are a family of 4 - I'm assuming 2 adults, 2 children. Can a husband and wife be separate tenants?

[sparrow100]

But if I want 10 rod all I have to do is add my name back on the waiting list again. That opens a whole debate if I should get an extra 5rod over someone within none.


Under the law the plot is "wholly or mainly cultivated by the occupier for the production of vegetable or fruit crops for consumption by himself or his family" (I love 1922 law where the occupier appears to be male!!)
The law doesn't define cultivated. Does cultivated include employing someone else to cultivate? Would Grandad coming to the plot and directing the kids and Grandkids how to do stuff but not actually being fit himself still count as cultivation?

I don't think this is easily police-able. Our allotment rent is collected by the Parish Council Clerk knocking on your door. So you have to still live in the Parish.

Would I take on someone elses plot for a year if they might return... not sure -> I wanted to instantly make changes to mine the day I got it. Those are changes that will take 3-4 years for me to get the benefit. If it was a friend and I was doing them a favour yes. If it was that I was gaining a plot then I'm not a fan of moving plot.

We have the same arrangement for additional plots. As long as you've been on the list again and waited your turn, you can apply for a second plot - though you have to have held your plot and cultivated to at least the minimum tenancy cultivation levels for 2 years.

And yes, our plots are only held by one individual. If you're a couple, one person is the tenant, the other is the 'helper'. No probs with that so far.

Our tenancy agreement sets out that the use of proxies is permitted but doesn't then elaborate, which is why we are a bit stuck.

[polc1410]

And yes, our plots are only held by one individual. If you're a couple, one person is the tenant, the other is the 'helper'. No probs with that so far.

So where I was going with that is if Mr Gardener gets a plot and then Mrs Gardener puts her name down and gets a plot they are two different plot holders... They might share the work on both 50:50. But I help guys out on our site - OK only for can you give me a hand moving this shed, water my toms when on holiday etc and no-one complains. So could they complain that Mr & Mrs Gardener have 2 plots shared? I'd say only if Mrs Gardener doesn't come out to play...

But I don't know how anyone knows who does the gardening. I live directly overlooking my plot. 60 plotholders. only about 4 or 5 look like they don't get much attention. Yet I'd say I've never seen 20-30 of the plot holders. They must come under cover of darkness to do stuff! (Or first thing in the morning when I'm still asleep). There are the same 3 or 4 people who are there all day every day. I'm sure they see more people than me...

[alldigging]

So where I was going with that is if Mr Gardener gets a plot and then Mrs Gardener puts her name down a

We say one per household...

[polc1410]

We say one per household...

While I entirely follow your logic the 1908 Small Holdings & Allotments Act appears to say its parlimentary constituents not households as it says "or persons who are liable to pay council tax": (Section 23 part 2)

If the council of any borough, urban district, or parish are of opinion that there is a demand for allotments  in the borough, urban district, or parish,  the council shall provide a sufficient number of allotments, and shall let such allotments to persons resident in the borough, district, or parish, and desiring to take the same.
(2)On a representation in writing to the council of any borough, urban district, or parish, by any six registered parliamentary electors or persons who are liable to pay an amount in respect of council tax resident in the borough, urban district, or parish, that the circumstances of the borough, urban district, or parish are such that it is the duty of the council to take proceedings under this Part of this Act therein, the council shall take such representation into consideration.

In Scotland (where Sheneval hangs out) almost identical obligations from the 1892 Allotments (Scotland) Act.

Perhaps they can say they took it into consideration but decided there was insufficient demand due to them being from the same household.??

[Euan]

It's the policy on our site as well (and perhaps in Glasgow) and I fully agree with it where there are waiting lists. It lets more people get growing.

We got a half plot last March (c. 450 sq ft) and to be honest it's fine for us. We managed to grow ample quantities.

I think if our sharer leaves we get the option to take over the full plot. We've decided that even if another plot came up we wouldn't leave as we like the location we have and we've spent time and effort working on our plot.