Elections 6th May...

[taff]

No, she probably had the best of intentions....and she chose the least destructive way of doing it so as not to destroy communities, liveliehoods etc etc.

lovely lady.

[organic]

I suggested nothing of the sort and comments like that are very unhelpful.

I still can't figure out why any discussion about 70s and 80s politics always converge on "Thatcher was a complete horror!" (or sarcastic opposite comments) when anyone suggests that it wasn't all her fault and in fact much (possibly even most) of the blame for all the problems (including livelihoods) lies with the union.

Thatcher didn't wake up one morning and say "Do you know what, Denis? I'm going to screw the miners over for laughs!"
The stockpiling was in direct response to previous union action and preparation to take on the union.

I'm still of the opinion that all who seek power are undesirable people at best - but as much as I despise politicians - the simplistic view most people seem to have of the miners strike does my head in.

Thatcher didn't start it, she didn't cause it, but she did succeed in the plan to take the power to rule the country away from the union and give it back to the government.

She didn't stand outside the pits hurling abuse and worse at "scabs" who wanted to put food on the table. She didn't make friends turn their backs on those who broke and went back to work to feed and clothe their kids and keep a roof over their head.

Both sides of the strike did things which had a really heavy impact on ordinary people - to hold Thatcher up as bogeyman and scapegoat combined is to ignore most of what actually happened.

[Snadger]

......I always thought the rich voted Tory and the poor voted Labour?

Am I wrong?

[taff]

I suggested nothing of the sort and comments like that are very unhelpful.

subjective and objective. I'm not objective about her, not in any way shape or form.
I didn't suggest that you suggested, I was being sarcastic, which had nothing to do with your opinion,and everything to do with my own.

Which is usually why I stay out of politics, because I'm not informed enough, or want to be informed enough to read through political histories and judge from history or from those who write the history books.

I'm of the 'anyone who wants to be a politician may have the best of intentions but will end up a lying cheating [insert swear word]' camp.

[PAULW]

......I always thought the rich voted Tory and the poor voted Labour?

Am I wrong?

Yes you are, I've never had a lot of money but I have always believed that government should be there to encourage people to make the best of themselves and their talents/skills without to much interferance but be there to act as a safety net and help those who cannot help themselves, to tax people enough to run the country without making people so poor they have to rely on handouts

[Brengirl]

It seems that everyone wants a little more out of the communal pot and we are given the privilege of voting for the party that we think will deliver just that. There will always be winners and losers when we gamble.
I will always vote for a party that allows me to better myself by my own labours.

[Snadger]

Yes you are, I've never had a lot of money but I have always believed that government should be there to encourage people to make the best of themselves and their talents/skills without to much interferance but be there to act as a safety net and help those who cannot help themselves, to tax people enough to run the country without making people so poor they have to rely on handouts

I thought the present govenment were taking the majority of tax from those who could afford it?

[pigletwillie]

Yes you are, I've never had a lot of money but I have always believed that government should be there to encourage people to make the best of themselves and their talents/skills without to much interferance but be there to act as a safety net and help those who cannot help themselves, to tax people enough to run the country without making people so poor they have to rely on handouts

Like wise, under Labour, to succeed, flourish and do well is reviled, to earn more than your neighbour brings out the green eyed monster and you will be taxed more for being bothered to do well. I am not talking about the very rich, I am talking about me. Over the last 20 years I have bothered to increase my skills, gain more qualifications, keep a good job and be paid accordingly. The net result is that I pay 15% more tax on a proportion of my wage "because I bothered". The little extra I do therefore actually keep in my pocket for being bothered makes it not worth the effort.

[Snadger]

Like wise, under Labour, to succeed, flourish and do well is reviled, to earn more than your neighbour brings out the green eyed monster and you will be taxed more for being bothered to do well. I am not talking about the very rich, I am talking about me. Over the last 20 years I have bothered to increase my skills, gain more qualifications, keep a good job and be paid accordingly. The net result is that I pay 15% more tax on a proportion of my wage "because I bothered". The little extra I do therefore actually keep in my pocket for being bothered makes it not worth the effort.

But you aren't relying on handouts piglet? Will the Tory's abolish the higher rate of tax? If so, for your own benefit, you have to vote for them.

[PAULW]

I thought the present govenment were taking the majority of tax from those who could afford it?

Petrol is a necessity to a lot of people who live in outlying areas without tax it would cost about 40p a litre people on low incomes have no choice wether to pay this or not, remember under Wilson the Beatles, Tom Jones, Englebert humperdink were paying 19/6d in the � tax on their income so Tom and Englebert left the country as did a lot of scientist and other clever folk in the brain drain.

[janeyo]

None of the candidates ever bother to come round. If one of them does then they might get my vote for making the effort to talk to people.

[pigletwillie]

But you aren't relying on handouts piglet? Will the Tory's abolish the higher rate of tax? If so, for your own benefit, you have to vote for them.

No party will remove it Snadger, but only Labour have capped the allowance which has meant I now fall into the 40% pit.

�37401 is the level where 40% kicks in and whilst I am very aware it is a good wage, it hardly gets me on the rich list. Just for the record, I earn that working 12 hours shifts, 4 on, 4 off doing alternating days and nights in the wet or dry, weekends and bank holidays if on shift in a big granite quarry as a highly skilled maintenance electrician. I dont get it for sitting on my arse working 9-5 in a warm office. I for one resent being taxed more.....oh yes, then there is the raise in the NI cap and the fact that is going up 1% to come.

[bubblewrap]

None of the candidates ever bother to come round. If one of them does then they might get my vote for making the effort to talk to people.

Please don't expect a candidate to "call" on you Jane.
The average parliamentary constituency has about 75,000 electors or about 35,000 homes it would take some effort to visit all these addresses in the four weeks of the campaign.

[organic]

I'm of the 'anyone who wants to be a politician may have the best of intentions but will end up a lying cheating [insert swear word]' camp.

Laughed my head off at that... half in an "it's funny because it's true" way and half because it was well written.

I do agree that some get into it for good reasons, but when it all boils down they think they know better for us than we do and because they are "in power" (and there lies my gripe) they get their way for our lives and we don't get ours.

Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall wanted to slaughter and butcher his pigs at River Cottage, but The-People-Who-Know-Best have decreed that if anyone else is to eat them (not even for sale - though I don't think that should matter - even bartering them or having friends over for a meal) they must die in a slaughter house.

The level of knowing-better is that extreme that even if you WANT to buy home raised, slaughtered and butchered animal bits - you can't. That you can't eat sheep brains (if you're so inclined, and I'm not) for fear of BSE - an illness that doesn't even affect sheep! (another HFW one that).



Can't fault much with the current discussion about taxation - except the point about the fairness of tax. Even IF you grant that the tax is taken from those who can afford it (something I seriously dispute) there's nothing fair in the slightest about giving that to people who can't be bothered to work, who have kids and sign on for a living or on "services" the victim of the tax doesn't use, want or need - and could be better provided more efficiently and cheaper by a private sector exposed to the full and brutal realities of the free market.


Brengirl
I want a government that will get rid of the majority of the communal pot so we all pay in far less leaving us all wealthier, better able to provide for ourselves and less exposed to problems like recession (unless we're dumb enough not to save for a rainy day - and if we are dumb enough to fail to do so we should get nothing from those who did save for it unless they decide, charitably, to hand it over).

[Two_Sheds]

Just for the record, I earn that working 12 hours shifts, 4 on, 4 off doing alternating days and nights in the wet or dry, weekends and bank holidays ... I dont get it for sitting on my arse working 9-5 in a warm office.

when I worked in a warm office, I was earning �11,000 gross. I *probably* have more qualifications (paper ones; I collected them at night school on top of my day job, trying to better myself) than even you PW, but they didn't get me very far.

Now I work in a primary school, trying to drum some sense into 10 year olds, or at least get them on their way to some qualifications, and I earn considerably less. I'm just glad that I don't spend my day wiping up old people's sh** like nurses and carers do.

I know some very rich people, and they pay even less tax than I do.