Your thoughts????

[Nicos]

I have to agree that I doubt the caution which is absolutely neccessary on a river bank would be fully implimented when using Glyphosate.
Lazy peeps being lazy peeps

[organic]

True enough re: laziness with Glyphosphate.


TEB - I don't for a moment think herbicide is a "good" solution - I just think it's at least controllable wheras once these bugs are released that's it. No control, no going back, nothing.
I can't even pretend I really have a "better" solution. I just feel uneasy about the prospect of derliberately releasing another alien species into an ecosystem to which it doesn't belong. If something goes wrong, I can't for the life of me see how we'll be able to do anything at all to stop it.


Ollie - I think it's different in that with domestication the animals are generally kept controlled - that's not to say it's all been good - domestication and agriculture have caused some absolute disasters, a cursory glance at things like the deer problem thanks to the eradication of apex predators.
In this case though it's got far more potential to be like the aussie cane toads - a species lifted from one ecosystem and dumped on another.

It's that level of interference I find worrying. Not the low level, gradual tinkering through sleective breeding that has given us the domestic livestock and crops of today, but taking a species from one area and dropping it into another - again though... maybe it'll be fine.

[HeyWayne]

These splinters don't half get umcomfortable after a while.

[bubblewrap]

Spot on!

Cane Toads in Australia

Who are to blame for Australia's rabbit "problem"? lateral thinking required.

On the bugs & the knot weed question I have misgivings.
What else will the little critters attack when they can't get knot weed?

[King Carrot]

I have to agree that I doubt the caution which is absolutely neccessary on a river bank would be fully implimented when using Glyphosate.
Lazy peeps being lazy peeps

I tend to find this applies to all walks of life including scientists and researchers

Another problem with a lot of research is that it is also generally funded by people/bodies with an agenda/financial interest of some sort and any results are likely to be biased in their favour - can we be sure the peeps spawning these critters ain't got the scientists on the payroll

and have they starved them and offered them Spring Cabbage?

that's what I'd like to know

[Shadylane]

Who are to blame for Australia's rabbit "problem"? lateral thinking required.

On the bugs & the knot weed question I have misgivings.
What else will the little critters attack when they can't get knot weed?

Well according to the article they won't actually eradicate it just keep it under control as they do in their native land so that shouldn't be an issue. Still makes me uneasy though

[SueA]

I was thinking the same as others about what happens when they run out of Knotweed, has nobody heard of adapt & survive? But then Shadylane posts that they don't eradicate the knotweed, just 'control it' so why bother introducing them in the first place. I'll join the rest of you with splinters from sitting on the fence & worry that not enough research has been done yet.

[TEB]

I was thinking the same as others about what happens when they run out of Knotweed, has nobody heard of adapt & survive? But then Shadylane posts that they don't eradicate the knotweed, just 'control it' so why bother introducing them in the first place. I'll join the rest of you with splinters from sitting on the fence & worry that not enough research has been done yet.

Because if left unchecked they will cause not only millions of pounds worth of damage they will also wipe out native vegation which then has an effect on the fauna that relies on it.

How much research is enough, 5 years, 10, 20!

[organic]

While I agree the knotweed is a serious problem, I do wonder if the treatment has potential to be worse than the illness.
When it comes to how much research is needed, I don't think you can put a number of years on it. If the research is done in tightly controlled conditions (which it would need to be) it wouldn't have the real conditions that could cause adaptation (interbreeding with native species, weather conditions and so on).

Again, maybe it'll be fine, but it strikes me as far too high a risk.

The fact they have pesticides ready to use if there's a problem suggests they are anticipating one... but once they've been released into the wild I can't see any way they'd be capable of controlling it.

The research is sound - in their native environment and in controlled conditions they only feed on knotweed. That can't be extrapolated to the natural environment over here though. The conditions of the test don't accurately match the real world conditions they will be released into... there's no way they could.

[TEB]

While I agree the knotweed is a serious problem, I do wonder if the treatment has potential to be worse than the illness.
When it comes to how much research is needed, I don't think you can put a number of years on it. If the research is done in tightly controlled conditions (which it would need to be) it wouldn't have the real conditions that could cause adaptation (interbreeding with native species, weather conditions and so on).

Again, maybe it'll be fine, but it strikes me as far too high a risk.

The fact they have pesticides ready to use if there's a problem suggests they are anticipating one... but once they've been released into the wild I can't see any way they'd be capable of controlling it.

The research is sound - in their native environment and in controlled conditions they only feed on knotweed. That can't be extrapolated to the natural environment over here though. The conditions of the test don't accurately match the real world conditions they will be released into... there's no way they could.

There comes a time when you just have to trust the experts to get it right. I think a lot of the problem is that it is the first time it is been done in Europe, elsewhere though it is more commonplace and has been for years, one good example is the control of purple loosestrife in the US and Canada.
Your comment re "pesticides ready to use" is standard practice, the same way that I have a fire extinguisher in the office - not because I anticipate having a fire, the contingencies in place were and I quote "Out of an abundance of caution and to reassure the public, contingency measures will be on stand-by in the early stages"

While this is the first time that a biological control has been targeted at a plant (in the UK), it isn't the first time a control have been used in the UK, in the 1980 and non native beetle was released to predate on another non native the spruce bark beetle and this control continues to be highly successful.

[organic]

TEB - the fundamental difference is this...
If a fire starts in the office, be it from a faulty socket, a kettle boiling dry or something else entirely - there's a realistic chance that you'll be able to put the fire out with the fire extinguisher.

That's simply not the case with this issue.

To continue with the fire extinguisher analogy it's less like your office example and more like saying "we're going to start a fire in the Australian bush this summer... just a small one mind, a few acres, that's all... but don't worry, we've got a fire extinguisher in case it gets out of hand."

The scale of the problem should something go wrong is not something that could be controlled.

Generally speaking "to reassure the public" means exactly the same as when police and politicians say they want people to "feel safe" or that they must "be seen to be doing something" - it's a feelgood, cosy pat on the head "there there... shhh... don't worry your pretty little head about it" with absolutely no substance behind it.

Further to that, "in the early stages"... so, release them onto the knotweed, observe that nothing's happening and then what? What if the "adaptation" some people fear does happen, but not for 5 or 10 years? I don't suppose the grey squirrel was much of a problem in the "early stages" after its release.

Once again, it might be fine... of course... but it might not, and if not there's not going to be a single thing we can do about it.

[di]

Out of interest.....sorry,it's getting a lil boring on the fence.....just how many thousands of years has it had in Japan to interbreed and turn into a monster?Also,what other goodies does it munch on in it's Native country.....I'm pretty sure they grow cabbages,so do Japanese growers have problems with them munching on their greens when they're fed up with the Knotweed?
Sorry,I'm equally sceptical about the scaremongering on this one as I am the actual experiment.I can totally see that there have been similar introductions of non native species that have gone hugely wrong but also I'm not convinced that an insect that's been happily munching on just one plant species in Japan is going to mutate into the pest from Hell just because it's in Britain
Personally I'd be a little more concerned(if I lived in Scotland)that they're considering bringing back bears and wolves to control the ever increasing deer population(and what I don't understand on that one is that the price of Venison is hideously overpriced yet instead of sending a few folk out to hunt them and be rewarded with free meat they're contemplating spending thousands to bring back bears)

[organic]

Apex predators actually do far more than keep the numbers of herbivores down. I can't remember where it was, but I saw something somewhere about the reintorduction of apex predators into an area where man had hunted them to the last and it had unexpected benefits on other things, many of them prey.

Bears and wolves really pose little threat to humans as for the most part they stay away. Grizzlies are another matter but we won't be getting them in scotland. There will probably be incidents of them wandering into human-inhabited areas which does carry a number of issues, but this is getting into the "armed defence" issue though - and while the mods on here are very tolerant of political rants, this is only a hair's breadth from getting into a "right to bear arms" discussion which will go nowhere good.


Back on the topic though - it's had a long time in a completely different ecosystem where it has predators, different weather conditions and so on. In this ecosystem the weather conditions, plant life and everything else is different and the natural predators won't be coming over here with them.

It's the change in conditions that I believe brings about a risk of changes to hitherto unobserved habits.

The thing is, I'm not scaremongering. I've said several times that it may well be fine, but if it's not we won't be able to do a single thing about it. My argument is a mix of "fools rush in" and a "pandora's box" type affair. Once the are here, they are here... end of story. If it's fine then we've got no problem, but if it's not it's got potential to be a bit of a mare.

[valmarg]

The bit that bothers me about this, and I'm against introducing something noxious (the sledgehammer to crack a walnut) is, how many of you out there does the Japanese Knotweed affect?

Personally, there is a small patch about two miles away.

I think the introduction of this beastie is way OTT.

valmarg

[organic]

There's a wee bit on a mound at the nearest allotments to my house (and about 2.5 miles closer than MY allotment... grumble) and there's a sign up saying there's "treatment" in place at an abandonded churchyard about 2 miles away.

That's the nearest I know of.


EDIT
On the other hand - we've never been able to get rid of the ivy growing around our back fence and it's currently in the process of killing next door's apple tree.