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  • #31
    "Ok, I know this may raise a few eyebrows but it is very difficult and expensive to get organic fertilizer. I know all the benefits of organic fertiliser to the soil and it is natural way."

    "The food we eat is organic as it is not processed and no chemicals sprayed on it. So, as long as we ensure the chemical fertilizers are fully used up, is it not ok to use chemicals?"
    I think there is a considerable level of assumption in there.
    (1) even certified organic produce has a considerable level of chemicals in it that are permitted and in some cases required by law, and some organic-approved chemicals (eg Bordeaux Mixture) can persist for a long time
    (2) I'm not sure it is ever possible to be sure that chemical fertilisers are "fully used up", they certainly are not in modern agriculture - nitrate pollution is a major problem.
    (3) I think word "chemical" is a chimerical word - pretty much anything can be defined as a "chemical". Spraying organically-approved Bordeaux mixture is as much a "chemical" as paraquat. Pretty much anything has the power to do harm, a surprising range of things can do net good regardless of side-effect. So it's unclear what you mean by "chemicals" in this context. Using Creosote to get rid of daisies is pretty much unambiguously not acceptable. Using a full-bore pesticide under approved controlled conditions to stop an outbreak of colarado beetle is probably a good thing.

    "And moreover, is it not the same product? Nitrates are nitrates."
    No is the short answer (IMO) to this.
    (1) commercial nitrates are more soluble and tend to be washed out before being taken up. This isn't surprising from a commercial point of view - it's much easier to put a lot of powder/tablets etc on the soil than it is to monitor and work with a slow-release method that may not correct the levels in the timescales required for optimum growth.
    (2) commercial fertiliser isn't just the packet on the shelf, it's the shelf, the factory, the lorry, and excavation and shipping of raw material. So aside from the consequences in the location you put the fertiliser, there's the consequences elsewhere.
    (3) every bit of locally-produced compostable material/poo etc is another mass that isn't in a bin-lorry being shipped to disposal.


    I don't use chemical fertilisers as I don't think it's worth it. There are clear and serious biological consequences to using them. If I don't use them, I may get less yield, but as I'm not going to reduce the level food-shopping to zero, the downside of not growing my own persists, so I don't think there is an upside.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by bikermike View Post
      I think there is a considerable level of assumption in there.
      (1) even certified organic produce has a considerable level of chemicals in it that are permitted and in some cases required by law, and some organic-approved chemicals (eg Bordeaux Mixture) can persist for a long time
      (2) I'm not sure it is ever possible to be sure that chemical fertilisers are "fully used up", they certainly are not in modern agriculture - nitrate pollution is a major problem.
      (3) I think word "chemical" is a chimerical word - pretty much anything can be defined as a "chemical". Spraying organically-approved Bordeaux mixture is as much a "chemical" as paraquat.
      For the record, Bordeaux mixture has been withdrawn from sale since 2015.

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      • #33
        Well said, Bikermike.

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        • #34
          Eu still to decide if organic farmers (and vineyards) can continue using it..

          https://www.meininger.de/en/wine-bus...rganic-farming

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          • #35
            Its all very complex and I freely admit, the chemistry side of it goes straight over my head. However, I know what I'm putting on my garden and I have no worries about eating what I grow. I also know what my chooks have to eat and that its not laced with chemicals.

            This is another of those topics on which we will not all agree but its a useful discussion to have.

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            • #36
              Well got this reply from Melcourt, manufacturers of one of the more sustainable products you can buy:

              "Thank you for your enquiry about the contents of SylvaGrow.

              We add fertilizers and lime to the standard SylvaGrow products (SylvaGrow Sustainable Growing Medium, SylvaGrow with added John Innes and SylvaGrow Ericaceous) and organic fertilizers to SylvaGrow Organic and the SylvaGrow Planter for Organic Growing. The organic fertilizers do contain some animal derived materials such as blood, fish and bone derivatives. The non-organic, standard products contain artificial fertilizers with no animal derived materials in them, either in the fertilizers or the bulk ingredients. We need to add the fertilizers as without them there would be insufficient nutrients for adequate plant growth.

              I hope this answers your question but do get back to me if you need any information."

              So either animal products or artificial ones but I still think it is one of the better products you cn buy and I will use it this year (bought 6 bags).
              Last edited by Mark_Riga; 18-03-2019, 01:53 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by veggiechicken View Post
                I have a pack of Growmore in the shed, unopened. It must have been there at least 20 years, when I heard that you sjmply HAD to use Growmore if you had a garden/allotment.
                I seem to have managed well enough without opening it..
                Thinking about it, I use very little "fertiliser". Chicken manure and horse manure when I can get it. Chicken pellets in holes when planting out.
                Liquid seaweed feed for the toms and comfrey/nettle stinky stuff.
                Has your Growmore got a picture of a woman in a headscarf on the front and 'DIG FOR VICTORY' on the front? Could be worth a fortune as a collectors item!
                My Majesty made for him a garden anew in order
                to present to him vegetables and all beautiful flowers.- Offerings of Thutmose III to Amon-Ra (1500 BCE)

                Diversify & prosper


                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by veggiechicken View Post
                  They also used sponges on sticks in the communal lavatorium which they shared with whoever needed the next wipe..................and I don't mean sponge cakes.

                  Nettles are very versatile - for eating. string, paper, fertiliser and feeding butterflies etc etc

                  They're also indicator plants for archaeologists to show where there has been soil disturbance in connection with human habitation...........

                  (Of course, I could be making this up)
                  You forgot about beer! How could you do that.
                  My Majesty made for him a garden anew in order
                  to present to him vegetables and all beautiful flowers.- Offerings of Thutmose III to Amon-Ra (1500 BCE)

                  Diversify & prosper


                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I like nettles - I picked the young shoots and took home and stuck them straight in the freezer, to use in soup. I'm not actively going to try and save them, but I will make use of the ones I find, to make fertiliser
                    https://nodigadventures.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Snadger View Post
                      Has your Growmore got a picture of a woman in a headscarf on the front and 'DIG FOR VICTORY' on the front? Could be worth a fortune as a collectors item!
                      Its (and I'm) not that old
                      I'll look for it tomorrow.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Bikermike, my primary issue is to understand if there is any issue using "chemical" fertilizer with regards to human health. I think there is none. The environmental impact is obvious but I believe it is much easier to ensure all fertilizer is used up ın my little beds than to analyze the antibiotics that passed to animals manure and from there to my tomatoes. I agree that chemical is not the right word, maybe artificial is better. And I insist, nitrates are nitrates from chemistry perspective
                        Originally posted by bikermike View Post
                        "Ok, I know this may raise a few eyebrows but it is very difficult and expensive to get organic fertilizer. I know all the benefits of organic fertiliser to the soil and it is natural way."

                        "The food we eat is organic as it is not processed and no chemicals sprayed on it. So, as long as we ensure the chemical fertilizers are fully used up, is it not ok to use chemicals?"
                        I think there is a considerable level of assumption in there.
                        (1) even certified organic produce has a considerable level of chemicals in it that are permitted and in some cases required by law, and some organic-approved chemicals (eg Bordeaux Mixture) can persist for a long time
                        (2) I'm not sure it is ever possible to be sure that chemical fertilisers are "fully used up", they certainly are not in modern agriculture - nitrate pollution is a major problem.
                        (3) I think word "chemical" is a chimerical word - pretty much anything can be defined as a "chemical". Spraying organically-approved Bordeaux mixture is as much a "chemical" as paraquat. Pretty much anything has the power to do harm, a surprising range of things can do net good regardless of side-effect. So it's unclear what you mean by "chemicals" in this context. Using Creosote to get rid of daisies is pretty much unambiguously not acceptable. Using a full-bore pesticide under approved controlled conditions to stop an outbreak of colarado beetle is probably a good thing.

                        "And moreover, is it not the same product? Nitrates are nitrates."
                        No is the short answer (IMO) to this.
                        (1) commercial nitrates are more soluble and tend to be washed out before being taken up. This isn't surprising from a commercial point of view - it's much easier to put a lot of powder/tablets etc on the soil than it is to monitor and work with a slow-release method that may not correct the levels in the timescales required for optimum growth.
                        (2) commercial fertiliser isn't just the packet on the shelf, it's the shelf, the factory, the lorry, and excavation and shipping of raw material. So aside from the consequences in the location you put the fertiliser, there's the consequences elsewhere.
                        (3) every bit of locally-produced compostable material/poo etc is another mass that isn't in a bin-lorry being shipped to disposal.


                        I don't use chemical fertilisers as I don't think it's worth it. There are clear and serious biological consequences to using them. If I don't use them, I may get less yield, but as I'm not going to reduce the level food-shopping to zero, the downside of not growing my own persists, so I don't think there is an upside.
                        Last edited by Selymbria; 18-03-2019, 11:11 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          my point is that one method (the artificial fertiliser) puts a lot of highly-soluble nitrates into the soil and accepts a considerable degree of run off that gets into ground-water and watercourses.

                          Nitrates by more traditional methods do not release nitrates as quickly or in such quantities. Result is less pollution.

                          In terms of effects on human health, groundwater pollution has an effect on the water we drink, maybe not today, but soon, and affects fish and other animal life that will filter back up the food chain.

                          Sources of nitrate pollution
                          https://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/groun...rate/home.html

                          effect on human health
                          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6068531/

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I would have through any processed chemicals used would mean you lose the 'organic' label. There are a few good options through

                            Fish blood and bone
                            Chicken manure
                            Start compost heap
                            Start a wormery
                            Brew compost tea


                            All of these are excellent organic feed for any plants or vegetables.
                            Last edited by burnie; 06-11-2020, 06:18 PM.

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