How to you prepare beds for planting removing weeds without depleting the soil?

[caribumamba]

I know there is the no dig method but It is not feasible for me as I don't have lots of cardboard to put down as a layer between the weeds and the compost top layer but also having said that I don't have enough compost to make a full top layer either.

Patch is about 90ft by 50 I think for my main growing area.

What I did last year was clear all that space manually with only hand tools which was super dense weeds and brambles.

Now that top layer is organic matter isn't it? and even though they are weeds then the organic matter is being drained if it doesn't go back on that growing space isn't it? I actually piled it at the sides and in the time since hasn't grown tremendous thickets of weeds in the interim so I am thinking these are inadvertent compost piles in themselves aren't they? that I could now put back on the growing space? There is a small layer of growth on them but only a couple of inches and then just soil beneath. I know there will be weed seeds in there but weed seeds get everywhere anyway don't they it is just a case of your intended crops out competing the weeds isn't it?

I got to thinking about this as I was clearing a small area of the space today which has weeded up thickly since last year's growing and it didn't seem practical to just leave those weeds in place due to how dense they were and for the reason below.

As another experiment on a little patch where I grow a little bit of soft fruits, or try, that had gotten badly grassy and remembering when I volunteered in a garden they would often hoe and just leave the weeds in place, turning them upside down, telling me that it would feed the soil. Well I tried this a couple of weeks ago but the grass has now just rerooted. So that doesn't look like a good option.

For most of the space I planted a cover crop to suppress weeds so I plan to just knock that in before planting the next crop. I think I read you should do that a few weeks before to let it die down but haven't got time for that now I think and will just knock them in and plant right away.

I read a gardening book which was focused on sustainable growing not long ago which advocated making compost piles out of weeds which I have done accidentally above so I am thinking perhaps continue like that? Clear the fresh weeds into a pile off the growing area and bring the decomposed piles from last season back on to the area.

How do people usually do it? I suppose a lot just buy bags from garden centers and don't think much about sustainability but I am interested in the sustainable way where you are not bringing anything else in and have a closed system.

I imagine at some point there will be a critical mass where the last growing crop will be harvested and then you plant the next one, and/or, using cover crops so there is no gap, which is what I am trying now, right away without the weeds having chance to grow? but still in that case you would be having to add organic matter back wouldn't you due to the harvested material being taken, which would be eaten. That would be where human manure compost piles would feed it back wouldn't it to keep the balance?

[JoaoLeaftide]

If you cleared dense weeds and brambles manually last year that top layer is already breaking down and adding organic matter, so you're not starting from nothing. I'd just hoe off whatever's coming back now and plant into it. Chucking a thin layer of compost over the top where you can helps but you don't need to cover the whole 90x50 at once.

[caribumamba]

If you cleared dense weeds and brambles manually last year that top layer is already breaking down and adding organic matter, so you're not starting from nothing. I'd just hoe off whatever's coming back now and plant into it. Chucking a thin layer of compost over the top where you can helps but you don't need to cover the whole 90x50 at once.

I presume you mean the newly formed weeds from the past year. Well yesterday I mattocked that and that too was a fairly thick carpet. It wasn't brambles, maybe a few small shoots, but mostly grass which as I mentioned earlier, I tried turning grass over on my soft fruits and they just rerooted again so don't see how those turves can be left in place like that.

It is just on the parts where I didn't lay down the cover crop seeds, which have made their own thick carpet. Maybe that is the trick? to just make sure it is covered with something that will be more favorable to dig in before replanting. That is how the commercial farmers do it isn't it? when there will be a gap, while most times there will be no time for weeds to grow due to immediate crop rotation. So perhaps I answered my own question there but open to further comment.

Mind you I have no idea if the cover crops would reroot yet (common vetch) but at least they are known for the purpose so must be agreeable in that respect somehow. Main thing they were advertised for was nitrogen fixing and weed suppression.

Now this does beg the question of how to avoid exactly the same issue with the cover crop! since it is known specifically to be fast growing and to drown out weeds, how would you make sure it too then would not self seed and drown out your intended crop!? Just a matter of digging in before they seed? What would happen if you missed the window and they in fact did seed?

[mothhawk]

If it was couch grass you turned over, that definitely won't die. It needs digging out. Every tiny root fragment will regrow.

With regard to common vetch, that is an annual, so shouldn't regrow once it has been turned into the soil. How long do you intend leaving it to grow as it flowers all summer, so if left till autumn you are bound to have seed on the ground, which of course gives you easy cover for winter. Depending what crops you have planned, I would be inclined to just mow or strim the vetch, or hoe off the tops, and plant through it.

[Andraste]

What I did last year was clear all that space manually with only hand tools which was super dense weeds and brambles. Now that top layer is organic matter isn't it? and even though they are weeds then the organic matter is being drained if it doesn't go back on that growing space isn't it? I actually piled it at the sides and in the time since hasn't grown tremendous thickets of weeds in the interim so I am thinking these are inadvertent compost piles in themselves aren't they? that I could now put back on the growing space?

I'd say yes, you have made compost piles & the broken down compost can now be put back onto your growing space.

There is a small layer of growth on them but only a couple of inches and then just soil beneath. I know there will be weed seeds in there but weed seeds get everywhere anyway don't they it is just a case of your intended crops out competing the weeds isn't it?

I'd say it's possible your piles haven't reached a high enough temperature for the seeds not to germinate so you would be relying on the crops out competing the weeds or needing to hoe/hand weed them out.

As another experiment on a little patch where I grow a little bit of soft fruits, or try, that had gotten badly grassy and remembering when I volunteered in a garden they would often hoe and just leave the weeds in place, turning them upside down, telling me that it would feed the soil. Well I tried this a couple of weeks ago but the grass has now just rerooted. So that doesn't look like a good option.

That is the only issue with chop-and-drop & hoeing too to a certain extent as there is the chance that if the roots of more vigorous stuff makes contact with the soil (especially if they get 'rained in') they will re-root & grow again.

I read a gardening book which was focused on sustainable growing not long ago which advocated making compost piles out of weeds which I have done accidentally above so I am thinking perhaps continue like that? Clear the fresh weeds into a pile off the growing area and bring the decomposed piles from last season back on to the area. How do people usually do it?

We compost our weeds but in a dalek rather than a pile (except bindweed & creeping buttercup as they're too vigorous for our bins to kill them off).

I suppose a lot just buy bags from garden centers and don't think much about sustainability but I am interested in the sustainable way where you are not bringing anything else in and have a closed system. I imagine at some point there will be a critical mass where the last growing crop will be harvested and then you plant the next one, and/or, using cover crops so there is no gap, which is what I am trying now, right away without the weeds having chance to grow? but still in that case you would be having to add organic matter back wouldn't you due to the harvested material being taken, which would be eaten. That would be where human manure compost piles would feed it back wouldn't it to keep the balance?

We try not to buy in too much & rely on our own compost as much as we can but we do use chicken manure pellets, tomato feed & cow/horse manure (when it's available free from a friend or delivery to the allotment site). We also use comfrey which we grow on the plot.


Maybe that is the trick? to just make sure it is covered with something that will be more favorable to dig in before replanting. That is how the commercial farmers do it isn't it? when there will be a gap, while most times there will be no time for weeds to grow due to immediate crop rotation. So perhaps I answered my own question there but open to further comment.

I think you have answered your own question - replanting rather than leaving the soil empty of crops does help keep down the weeds. We always cover any beds that will be left empty for any significant time with membrane as that inhibits the weed growth (& wind/bird sown weed seeds).

Now this does beg the question of how to avoid exactly the same issue with the cover crop! since it is known specifically to be fast growing and to drown out weeds, how would you make sure it too then would not self seed and drown out your intended crop!? Just a matter of digging in before they seed? What would happen if you missed the window and they in fact did seed?

Yes - you would need to either cut of the flowering heads or chop-and-drop the plants or dig them in before they set seed to avoid self-seeding.

hope this helps

[ChingfordHarry]

One thing that comes to mind - the larger the compost heap, the better. So rather than having multiple small ones, I would combine everything (apart from things like couch grass, bindweed, tap roots from perennials) into a few big piles, each around 1m x1m x 1m - bigger than this they become hard to manage.

I separate out all roots from couch, bindweed, dandelions, cinquefoil, etc, and put them in a bin that has loads of holes in the sides so that they can dry out for a year or so - it seems to kill them so they can then be added to normal compost. On a 5-rod plot (say, 25 x 5m) I can produce ~90 litres of compost a year.

As I have mentioned in other threads, our soil is very clay-ey (go 20cm down and there is good-quality brick-making clay). After 6 years on the plot of trying to use only the compost that I could produce from the plot's own waste, I worked out that it would be another 20 or 30 years until the soil would be in reasonable condition - so I cracked and bought in several tonnes of compost from outside and put in raised beds (these, of course, have their own problems); in time, the raised beds will go but the soil in those parts should at least be semi-friable. Sometimes principle has to give way to practicality .

[caribumamba]

If it was couch grass you turned over, that definitely won't die. It needs digging out. Every tiny root fragment will regrow.

With regard to common vetch, that is an annual, so shouldn't regrow once it has been turned into the soil.

How long do you intend leaving it to grow as it flowers all summer, so if left till autumn you are bound to have seed on the ground, which of course gives you easy cover for winter. Depending what crops you have planned, I would be inclined to just mow or strim the vetch, or hoe off the tops, and plant through it.

Hmm good question. Well my original intent was just to have it grow over winter to keep something gorwing to stop the weeds and turn it in once it is growing season again, which would be now, but now you mention flowers might be nice to keep a patch to see them through their whole life cycle I have plenty of space to spare for growing so I can afford to leave one block just to look at. Also it is edible isn't it, so might as well keep it for that too. I know not the seeds, unless cooked/soaked for a very long time but the rest of the plant doesn't require such caution does it? They are really starting to take off now with the full sun; getting to a foot or more in height in some patches.

hope this helps

Yes, thanks for the comments. Sounds like I am on the right lines.

One thing that comes to mind - the larger the compost heap, the better. So rather than having multiple small ones, I would combine everything (apart from things like couch grass, bindweed, tap roots from perennials) into a few big piles, each around 1m x1m x 1m - bigger than this they become hard to manage.

I separate out all roots from couch, bindweed, dandelions, cinquefoil, etc, and put them in a bin that has loads of holes in the sides so that they can dry out for a year or so - it seems to kill them so they can then be added to normal compost. On a 5-rod plot (say, 25 x 5m) I can produce ~90 litres of compost a year.

As I have mentioned in other threads, our soil is very clay-ey (go 20cm down and there is good-quality brick-making clay). After 6 years on the plot of trying to use only the compost that I could produce from the plot's own waste, I worked out that it would be another 20 or 30 years until the soil would be in reasonable condition - so I cracked and bought in several tonnes of compost from outside and put in raised beds (these, of course, have their own problems); in time, the raised beds will go but the soil in those parts should at least be semi-friable. Sometimes principle has to give way to practicality .

Well I have not given the weed piles any thought and they were accidental. I will take your suggestions on board though.

Sure I understand re practicality but as I am full-time off grid I can be making more manure all the time eh? I did not have any mature stuff to use yet to get averages as you have but now I have a pile or two ready from last year so will be keen to see how far that goes; probably a few wheelbarrow's worth.

Now I am wondering what best to use it on, the apple trees or the veges? I think the apple tress as they are the more precious investment. Oh and of course I have those weeds piles which does give me more to play with.

[ChingfordHarry]

S... I can be making more manure all the time eh?

Personally, I'd leave making manure to horses! On that topic, if you're off-grid, you may well be not too far from a stable - all the stables round here are happy to give manure away, as long as you can arrange transport.

Now I am wondering what best to use it on, the apple trees or the veges? I think the apple tress as they are the more precious investment. Oh and of course I have those weeds piles which does give me more to play with.

The fruit trees won't be producing for a couple of years - you want to make sure that they are well-established first - but after then they would like to be fed. The vegetables will be grown and eaten this year probably (unless you've planted perennial veg like asparagus...) and would respond to be fed this growing season. Depends when you want to eat ...

I would tend to just mulch the fruit trees to keep the roots moister, and feed the veg. Bear in mind that garden compost doesn't usually have much in the way of nutrients, it's more a soil conditioner.

[caribumamba]

The fruit trees won't be producing for a couple of years - you want to make sure that they are well-established first

Yes but isn't part of the establishment giving them compost? You say they want to be fed after they are producing but why not before too to establish them?

[ChingfordHarry]

Yes but isn't part of the establishment giving them compost? You say they want to be fed after they are producing but why not before too to establish them?

They don't need as much in the way of nutrients before you're cropping from them. A good part of establishing fruit trees is getting the roots well into the ground - my feeling is that if you feed them as much as the veg they would have no incentive to develop a good root system (but I could be wrong).

Once you're taking a crop off them, they probably need about as much feeding as the veg.

[caribumamba]

They don't need as much in the way of nutrients before you're cropping from them. A good part of establishing fruit trees is getting the roots well into the ground - my feeling is that if you feed them as much as the veg they would have no incentive to develop a good root system (but I could be wrong).

Once you're taking a crop off them, they probably need about as much feeding as the veg.

The comments by FB. from my OP seem rather misleading in light of what has been discussed in this thread with their general commentary being 'abuse them and they will thrive!' maybe in terms minimal inputs but seems they have a large water requirement. Perhaps their site was different than my fully exposed heavy clay south facing aspect.

[rary]

As ChingfordHarry has said you want to create a good root system before feeding any tree if you add feeding when planting the roots wont search out for nutrients, when planting ensure that the that you plant into a good sized square hole, if you plant into a round hole the roots will take the easiest way to go and eventually get root bound in the hole, use good open soil when planting and the roots will eventually push into any clay soil
As for other parts of the garden I would turn the soil of my intended veg bed removing any long white string like roots, more than likely to be couch grass though there are other pernicious weeds with the same characteristic roots, any such growth, roots and suchlike should be placed into a water container where after a considerable time they will rot and can be added onto a compost heap, the water can be added to a watering can and used as a liquid feed, but remember it must be diluted, if you intend going the no dig method you need to be prepared to hoe on a regular basis and doing so will eventually weaken any weed. As for creating a closed system, I think you may find that a bit more difficult, remember there's a reason why you are advised not to use manure from meat eating animals, I think there are pathogens etc. which can be transmitted through the soil, so not advisable to use such manure, it would be dificult to create a closed system but not impossible, again, remember that even forests are not closed systems as bird and animal droppings along with carcasses all add to the makeup of the forest floor, collecting leaves, seaweed and rotting wood all help towards creating friable soil

[caribumamba]

As for creating a closed system, I think you may find that a bit more difficult, remember there's a reason why you are advised not to use manure from meat eating animals, I think there are pathogens etc. which can be transmitted through the soil, so not advisable to use such manure, it would be dificult to create a closed system but not impossible,

I'm not a meat eating animal.

again, remember that even forests are not closed systems as bird and animal droppings along with carcasses all add to the makeup of the forest floor, collecting leaves, seaweed and rotting wood all help towards creating friable soil

I would count the native birds as part of that system. If they live there they are part of the system!

It seems peoples reluctance about humaure is more about social taboos/cultural norms than efficacy. It isn't an idea pulled out of the air, humans used it for longer than they haven't I guess.

Also I read 40% of commercial farming uses humanure already, just called a politically correct name of 'biosolids'.

Anyway not trying to convince anyone else. I will continue to experiment with it as are many other off-gridders.

[rary]

It seems peoples reluctance about humaure is more about social taboos/cultural norms than efficacy. It isn't an idea pulled out of the air, humans used it for longer than they haven't I guess.

Also I read 40% of commercial farming uses humanure already, just called a politically correct name of 'biosolids'.

Anyway not trying to convince anyone else. I will continue to experiment with it as are many other off-gridders.

I am well aware that human manure was used in gardening, I had a friend who when in Italy during the war came across a tomato field, he said the size and look of the tomatoes was unbelievable and wondered how they grow so well, it wasn't till he was crawling through the field that he found out what was used to feed them, it was human waste, he said it took him over a month to wash the smell out of his uniform and never ate a tomato again, and I also remember when farmers used to empty dry toilets and then mix it with cow manure before spreading it on their fields, but the government advised against such practices. A lot of off grid folks put their waste onto a soak away area and generally grow flowers in the soil, rather than using it for food supply.

[caribumamba]

A lot of off grid folks put their waste onto a soak away area and generally grow flowers in the soil, rather than using it for food supply.

Some do and others use it for food crops.

Anyway a fruitless discussion. I will keep doing it, yall will keep not doing it.

Interesting anecdotes though.

While clearing more of this grass growth on part of my beds today I remembered why this happened. It is because I originally laid a couple of kilos of ryegrain in this area as a cover for winter. The problem is that young rye looks identical pretty much to common grass and especially since it is in dormancy over winter.

I did suspect it was just grass but I didn't want to dig it up just in case and waited until spring and indeed it is just grass and has grown away merrily.

I can't understand why the rye didn't grow at all because the soil is fertile enough as I had an amazing crop of sweet peas in that area that lasted me for weeks. Also I looked it up again last night and apparently rye is supposed to do fine in clay and indeed is recommended to break it up due to its deep roots which would have been another reason why I chose it.

Maybe it is because I just used random ryegrain from a healthfood store which was from poland if I remember rightly so perhaps it was just not suited for this climate rather than rye itself being no good. Worth another try from a certified british seed seller at some point. I only didn't before because they were very busy at certain times when I wanted to buy them due to all the pro farmers buying up the grains in bulk at the time.

I also tried throwing a couple of kilos of wheat on a no dig area. What I did was just throw soil right on top of the weeds thinking that would smother them and chucked the wheat right on top thinking it might out compete. This was another failure and again the grass misindentification issue but in this case the grass has come through far thicker and is a thick carpet in most areas.

Btw for actual successful cover crops like with the vetch do I have to dig it in deep or could I just scythe it to ground level and plant a new crop without digging in? As per below the mattocking is really hard work so if there are sometimes alternatives I would welcome the relief.

I was thinking about what they did when I volunteered and they would throw down mypex over winter for the areas they didn't want weeds growing to remove at the appropriate time. At the time I thought 'oh no no plastic = bad' but now I think about it this is the best of both worlds isn't it where it is 'no dig' in a sense, depending on your definition as you may still turn over the soil after removing the mypex which is what we did, in that you are preventing the weeds with the cover while also keeping in the nutrients rather than removing the top soil like I have been doing.

I removed more today and it is shocking how much soil ends up taken off from only a couple of inches and you are left with some huge piles at the side. Piles of nutrients which should stay in the soil right? If doing that every year the soil would soon get depleted wouldn't it?

So it seems laying a cover would be a much better idea oh and a big plus is much less work!!! I have a 20x20 tarp that I am not using which would be very suited for that.

You could either do it before weeds have grown, after taking the last crops to prevent them, or after when weeds are in full swing to kill them off and let them stay in place right? If the latter how long would it take leaving the tarp on to kill them ready to plant another crop? I know the seeds would still be there but I would rely on the outcompeting method and also hand weeding to stop the weeds from getting a foothold. Hand weeding every so often is still far easier than having to mattock the whole area of well established weeds!