Too late to prune?

[nickdub]

secateurs aren't as easy to use cleanly as people often think - bit of practice on unimportant stuff in the hedge would be my best recommendation - I often use a sharp pruning knife for making clean cuts, but they aren't everyone's cup of tea.

You're right to be most concerned with the top shoot BTW - the second one down looks like it might be a candidate for a notch below it to slow it down a bit - be easy enough to tell in a few weeks when they've all done a bit more growing.

[veggiechicken]

Apple is braeburn on mm106 and cherry is stella on colt

.

There's good information on what to expect from those rootstocks at https://www.orangepippintrees.co.uk/...ock-tree-sizes.
Its a great site. Orange pippin is a member of this forum although we haven't seen him for a while.

[Fruitz]

secateurs aren't as easy to use cleanly as people often think - bit of practice on unimportant stuff in the hedge would be my best recommendation - I often use a sharp pruning knife for making clean cuts, but they aren't everyone's cup of tea.

You're right to be most concerned with the top shoot BTW - the second one down looks like it might be a candidate for a notch below it to slow it down a bit - be easy enough to tell in a few weeks when they've all done a bit more growing.

A pruning knife does sound like it would cut cleaner, i just had the secatuers on hand so figured I'd use that. I managed to cut the side shoots cleanly but the stem not so much probably due to the thicker nature.

You've got a good eye, i didn't even notice it myself but you're right a notch will be useful. I will wait a few weeks and see how it is then.

[Fruitz]

There's good information on what to expect from those rootstocks at https://www.orangepippintrees.co.uk/...ock-tree-sizes.
Its a great site. Orange pippin is a member of this forum although we haven't seen him for a while.

I did read through a lot of websites before I decided on which rootstock I wanted and orangepippin was actually one of the first I checked out, they do seem to have a lot of useful information on their site regarding other stuff too. I didn't follow their recommended distance of planting however as i had to plant the trees closer to make them all fit in the garden, about 2m or just over from each other.

[nickdub]

they'll be fine for now and you never know you may move somewhere with a bigger garden, or get an allotment - in 3 years time though if that doesn't happen, you'll be looking to give one or two away to make room for the other :-)

[Fruitz]

they'll be fine for now and you never know you may move somewhere with a bigger garden, or get an allotment - in 3 years time though if that doesn't happen, you'll be looking to give one or two away to make room for the other :-)

I do actually have an allotment but not allowed fruit trees over 2m or so which rules out the rootstocks i own. Would you say that having them closer than the recommended is a problem? I was reading up on high density orchards and some plant as many as 4 trees in one hole, i didn't want to go that far but those that did remarked that while the tree ends smaller than the average for that variety/rootstock the trees fruit well.

[nickdub]

Yes I'd say having trees too close together will likely be a problem. For standard trees you want them to be roughly twice as far apart as their eventual height so for 3m trees they'd be 6m trunk to trunk. The reason is that light and air are 2 of the main keys to getting healthy trees, good growth and therefor they are a necessity for fruiting.

That being said there are ways of pruning which alter the shape of a tree eg espalier which will allow a different shape to be made and therefor planting distances to be closer.

Personally I'm lazy, so I prefer to get the trees in with a view to doing as little pruning later on as possible.

Given you have an allotment with a 2m rule you might want to investigate buying ultra-dwarfing root-stocks, then you could graft on some of your favorite varieties there - should be possible to keep the trees under that height limit I'd think.

[Lardman]

Come over to the dark side ...

I do actually have an allotment but not allowed fruit trees over 2m or so which rules out the rootstocks i own.

2m - if my slide rule is right is around 6'6". You can easily keep most trees at that height if you want to it just takes a few more snips with the pruners. Just because the tree wants to do something it doesn't mean you have to let it.

I've planted some trees at high density just to play with different pruning methods. One of the 15'x1' rows has 2 espaliers, 2 double cordons and a single cordon, I head them off at around 7', they're trained in a formal manner.

There's another 15'x1' row I've planted up with tall spindles they're planted at 2' spacing and are struggling to make 6', very little need for pruning just some tying down and they're on MM106.

[Fruitz]

Yes I'd say having trees too close together will likely be a problem. For standard trees you want them to be roughly twice as far apart as their eventual height so for 3m trees they'd be 6m trunk to trunk. The reason is that light and air are 2 of the main keys to getting healthy trees, good growth and therefor they are a necessity for fruiting.

That being said there are ways of pruning which alter the shape of a tree eg espalier which will allow a different shape to be made and therefor planting distances to be closer.

Personally I'm lazy, so I prefer to get the trees in with a view to doing as little pruning later on as possible.

Given you have an allotment with a 2m rule you might want to investigate buying ultra-dwarfing root-stocks, then you could graft on some of your favorite varieties there - should be possible to keep the trees under that height limit I'd think.

Yeah I figured I'd have to prune to avoid the branches of the trees growing too close to each other. They do have empty space on one side so perhaps I could let those branches grow longer whilst pruning the branches where the two trees or meet or maybe even growing those branches more vertically.

I actually have a few dwarfing trees in the allotment, well my father does. I haven't really paid much attention to them however and not exactly sure of the varieties. They are all on a south wall right at the end of the allotment so it wouldn't really bother anyone in the allotment no matter how big they grew but it would block some light in my next door neighbour's garden and they are good people so he just stuck to dwarf trees.

I managed to find an decent area today on the same wall and I'm thinking of planting a Concorde pear tree on quince a rootstock if i can find one at a good price as it will get full sun and won't bother the neighbours as it's just before their garden.

[Fruitz]

Come over to the dark side ...



2m - if my slide rule is right is around 6'6". You can easily keep most trees at that height if you want to it just takes a few more snips with the pruners. Just because the tree wants to do something it doesn't mean you have to let it.

I've planted some trees at high density just to play with different pruning methods. One of the 15'x1' rows has 2 espaliers, 2 double cordons and a single cordon, I head them off at around 7', they're trained in a formal manner.

There's another 15'x1' row I've planted up with tall spindles they're planted at 2' spacing and are struggling to make 6', very little need for pruning just some tying down and they're on MM106.

To be honest I'm happy with over 2m in my garden, ideally I'd like the trees to grow to 2.5-3m tall there.

The trees currently in the allotment are mostly under 2 metres, not sure how much more they will grow however if any.

How are your trees coping with high density planting in terms of fruiting and overall health? The spacing on mine is quite a bit bigger than yours so would be interesting to hear how your mm106 has coped with even smaller spacing.

[Hereford fruit grower]

Lardman, what is your soil in Worcestershire, if you can maintain MM106 trees at 2 m high?

I live opposite a cider apple orchard. The trees are on MM106 rootstock. They appear to be 4.5-6 m high. I think the planting is about ten years old.

My neighbour planted 20 ha/50 ac of cider trees and said that he too expects them to grow to that height, although they're different varieties. It seems to show that local experience is critical and advice on a forum may not be much use unless you specify what soil yours is.

[Lardman]

Lardman, what is your soil in Worcestershire, if you can maintain MM106 trees at 2 m high?

Essentially soft red building sand ! 5 miles in either direction and Id be on a nice clay/loam. I wouldn't expect more than 14-16' out of mm106 for a mature tree though but cider trees are out of my wheelhouse.

Rootstock and soil types are undoubtedly important in the eventual height of a mature tree you can always reduce vigor and size by pruning. The the rootstock sizes are given for the potential height /spread of a mature unpruned or trained tree in ideal conditions, I don't imagine anyone growing trees will fit that criteria.

I have noticed particularly that restricting the tree in tall spindle form appears to reduce the vigor significantly, even the bramley is utterly wimpy

[Fruitz]

Just to update. The apple tree i ended up pruning is growing well and i should get a total growth of over 1m by the end of summer, not sure if that is good for first year growth on a bare root tree but I'm happy with it.

The Cherry Tree is growing even faster however I only have two shoots which looks quite strange, i nicked/notched the 2 buds 2 of the 4 shoots i had kept but it made no difference, they are refusing to come out





Did i nick/notch too late? The videos I've seen on this method are carried out when the trees dormant but i thought its not a good idea to cut into stone fruit trees until summer?

[nickdub]

nicking is not 100% guaranteed to give you bud break - it just helps to swing the odds in your favour. I'd do it when the trees are just starting out of dormancy in the spring - larger cuts are obviously not advisable eg pruning, but just a small cut with a v. sharp knife should be low risk.

[Fruitz]

nicking is not 100% guaranteed to give you bud break - it just helps to swing the odds in your favour. I'd do it when the trees are just starting out of dormancy in the spring - larger cuts are obviously not advisable eg pruning, but just a small cut with a v. sharp knife should be low risk.

Will try again in spring next year then. Will the 2 buds in the pictures die by then due to not breaking this year or could i try nicking them again? I only ask as they are exactly where i want the other 2 main branches (already have 2 1m or so branches growing)