apples/pears/plums border advice & opinions needed

[Paulieb]

This is now in danger of becoming one of my obsessive mini projects and diverting my attention from other things that need doing around the house and garden (they will have to wait.) Never thought it could be so interesting. Better the family don't know about it, as they'd think I'm mad and deliberately doing things the hard way.

Snap! I used to ask their opinion but now I just don't bother! All I get is......Is an apple not just an apple!?!

As he's doing it with crab apples, I wonder if it is possible with apples and pears.

Crab apples are just wild apples so will be the same principles.

[seneca196]

Ah a fellow obsessive whose family and friends just don't get it. I realized this when I found I would be wondering around farmers markets and various gardening and food shows alone. The rest of my bunch were busy looking at bakery stalls, hand made soaps and buying olives! Should have seen the looks on there faces when I came back with a bag of Pitmaston pineapples. Often find myself alone in the kitchen cutting out the bad bits from gathered up windfall. Used to have plenty at the old house and when I was a kid. Raised on a diet of scrumped un ripened apples and pears and would eat anything from a fruit tree. Struggle with the acidity nowadays and teeth not what they used to be, but still hanker after rock hard un ripened apples and pears. Must stop reminiscing now and think about rootstocks on the way home tonight.

[seneca196]

Having thought about it and after input from other family members (important I keep everyone on board and happy) I've decided to save the pleaching fruit tree projects for next year and go back to the more informal plan of 2 apples and 2 pears as half standards and see where that goes. (Pleaching is being saved for when the back fence is replaced next year.)

Bearing in mind my relative inexperience in these matters and the time I have to do the prep I thought give my initial experiment a go and see what happens over the next 4-5 years.

Here's my current thinking (in order, starting at the house end and going towards the back of the garden with the oak tree.)

Pear 1(quince A) Pear 2(quince A) Apple 1(MM106) Apple 2(MM106)

After a bit of research I cam up with these rootstocks, as they had the widest variety to choose from and some of the bigger, more vigorous types began to concern me. Fear I might unleash something uncontrollable.

If I were to go for the size next up then choice and availability is limited. I think it's a toss up between the "right rootstock and vigor" - limits my choice and "not quite right" but I get to go for a variety I like. Not sure between the two choices, but as it's a bit of an experiment I'm favouring wider choice/availability and something I prefer. Worst case I get no fruit, but even then I'll have had a go and learnt something (hopefully not a harsh lesson!)

Next I need to look at which varieties I would like to eat and would better suit the conditions. Trouble is most books and websites mention taste and not preferred conditions, at least in any detail.

Thanks for your attention. Now back to work.

[orangepippin]

Your analysis is good. When choosing fruit trees you invariably have to take one of two approaches - either fix your desired rootstock and then see what varieties are available from various suppliers, or fix your desired varieties and then go with whatever rootstocks will give you roughly the mature size you want.

[Paulieb]

Sounds like the start of a plan!

When looking at my choices of variety I've tried to consider things like spreading out the harvest, but still keeping matching pollination dates. Then also trying to find apple varieties that I can taste before purchase is not easy (especially in a short period of time). There may be a local apple day, or alternatively try local farm shops who usually have named varieties for sale depending on the season.

I bought some locally grown Katy and Discovery from the farm shop at the big Garden Centre at Evesham on the weekend. I love the Katy, but not that fussed on the discovery. Before this my favourite was Granny Smith (only ever from a supermarket!).

'The Apple Book' has lots of info on many varieties and managed to get a copy on the web for £16 (rrp £25), which is very useful. Also some fruit tree stockists have variety information on their websites regarding taste/vigour/etc.

[seneca196]

Agree with both of you. Need to keep things in proportion. (btw - which garden centre in Evesham? I'm near by and always head to the Worcester Nurseries, as they make a day out for my Mum.) I'm going to strike a compromise between oranagepippin's thoughts on:
"two approaches - either fix your desired rootstock and then see what varieties are available from various suppliers"
Fortunately, I've tried many of the more popular garden varieties at local fairs and markets, where people have fruit from their gardens (poor condition and maggots testify to this.) and am happy with all of them. Just a case of finding out which would be better for my particular situation. They all say things like "pendulous," "upright," "unfussy," tendency to spread," without mentioning things like "reliable and good for most situations and conditions"!
These, I mentioned earlier are the ones most places and websites stock in a variety of formats, so I assume they are the "reliable, mainstream" or maybe just popular tasting like supermarket varieties.
Apples - Sunset, Egremont Russet, Discovery, Scrumptious, Spartan, Fiesta, Red Falstaff.
Pears - Comice, Concorde, Beth, Conference, Williams.

Also, doing a bit of detective work in my local area and allotment, I have seen a few Falstaff (maybe a Red too), James Grieve, Discovery, Spartan and Williams and Conference.

I have a plan to grow more "select" or "choice" varieties, based on something you mentioned Paulieb
"I'm currently looking at putting in some cordon/columnar apple pear trees (planted 3ft apart), but this is on the north side (so south facing) of my garden, as ideally the tree will pretty much fruit from 1ft off the ground up to as high as I can grow them."
I may do the same in the area directly opposite to the difficult border I'm doing now. There I have a fence that too is south facing most of the day and seems ideal (I think) for a few oblique cordons. Will put a few "special choices" there. That will get it's own thread though and will consume the remaining 50% of time and attention that is left after thinking about this thread! Let the fun continue, until a freezing November day when I'm shivering wet and have trench-foot in my wellies. Likely to have a bonfire with the 4 standards on it then. I presume they all "burn well in most conditions, with a tendency spread to the neighbouring fence, leaving an aroma of smoke and a burnt after taste."

[Paulieb]

Agree with both of you. Need to keep things in proportion. (btw - which garden centre in Evesham?

Evesham Country Park. I'm doing a Horticulture Diploma at Garden Organic, so drive past this as its on my route. They did have the usual varieties too but they were from France and New Zealand.

I'm planning on going to a local 'apple picking day' in Dursley (South Glos). Sarah Juniper Sarah Juniper The Apple Factor has an orchard/s with 168 varieties where I hope to get to have a taste of whats available.

I have a plan to grow more "select" or "choice" varieties, based on something you mentioned Paulieb
"I'm currently looking at putting in some cordon/columnar apple pear trees (planted 3ft apart), but this is on the north side (so south facing) of my garden, as ideally the tree will pretty much fruit from 1ft off the ground up to as high as I can grow them."
I may do the same in the area directly opposite to the difficult border I'm doing now. There I have a fence that too is south facing most of the day and seems ideal (I think) for a few oblique cordons.

Another variable to think about, thanks to FB, is the local climate. In general apples native to the east (Kent, Norfolk, Suffolk, where it tends to be drier) can prefer different conditions compared to those from the West (Somerset, Dorset, Herefordshire where it tends to be wetter). There is also on average more sunshine later in the year in the east.

Not really a rule, but I am taking it into account when selecting a variety. In terms of finding which type is from where, these two sites might help a bit.
Welsh Mountain Cider & Tree Nursery
Keepers Nursery UK | Fruit trees for sale | Buy Online | Mail order

I'm also moving away from choosing a variety based on name.

[FB.]

They all say things like "pendulous," "upright," "unfussy," tendency to spread," without mentioning things like "reliable and good for most situations and conditions"!

The least fussy varieties tend to be triploids - and that's probably why such a high proportion of "heritage" varieties have turned out to be triploid and why many of the old relics in abandoned orchards are triploid types rather than diploid types.

The average triploid is more vigorous, more disease resistant and more tolerant of difficult conditions. However that's just the average; each variety has its own unique characteristics.

Just as important is choice of rootstock. The least fussy rootstocks are M25, MM111 and M9.
MM106 is very fussy - it doesn't grow well in many Eastern areas because it prefers lots of rain but the East is a relatively dry area with many light sandy/chalky soils which don't hold moisture well.

[FB.]

(poor condition and maggots testify to this.)

Plant Ellison's Orange, Scrumptious or Discovery; the maggots love them so much that they'll act like a beacon and all the other trees in the neighbourhood will be virtually free from maggots.

If possible avoid planting many disease-prone (scab, mildew, canker) varieties near to resistant varieties because the sickly trees will act as a reservoir and encourage fungal mutations which overcome the resistance of the resistant varieties.

[yummersetter]

If you have a sunny fence coming up, can you save your pears (+ peaches?) for that and put, say, Mirabelle or Morello cherry or damsons in their place? I know, I know, even more spanners in the works!

I grow a Concorde pear freestanding but among higher trees and also as a fan against a south facing wooden shed and the difference is that one is good, t'other is delicious.

[orangepippin]

Another variable to think about, thanks to FB, is the local climate. In general apples native to the east (Kent, Norfolk, Suffolk, where it tends to be drier) can prefer different conditions compared to those from the West (Somerset, Dorset, Herefordshire where it tends to be wetter). There is also on average more sunshine later in the year in the east.

Not really a rule, but I am taking it into account when selecting a variety.

In my opinion the area of origin of a variety is not a reliable indicator of the climates it is suitable for. Take Bramley and Cox, which originated probably no more than 100 miles apart. Both grow well in central and southern England. The former will also grow very nicely in southern California, the latter definitely won't.

[seneca196]

Part of a compromise reached after going through the family committee is 2 pears, 2 apples for the border and I get to plant what I want, within reason, in the 4-5m against the sun wall. I plan to rig up a raised bed against the fence and put some apple cordons in it. So that's one decision made. The other was plums would not work in the border and would possibly "waste" 1 of the 4 of the border options. So pear, pear, apple, apple was decided up. Subject to any new research findings of course. Most of the focus in this thread has been on the apples (I think because like me, they are everyone here's favourite) , so need to skew the debate a bit towards them too. Except for me, everyone prefers them, particularly soft and sweet (bizarrely I like the hard and less juicy.) So these have been what I've come up with
Pears - Comice, Concorde, Beth, Conference, Williams, Invincible.
Apple pollination might come from the cordons I plan to put opposite, but the pears, even the "self fertile" have a better chance with a partner. Like my apple shortlist MM106 - Sunset, Egremont Russet, Discovery, Scrumptious, Spartan, Fiesta, Red Falstaff, James Grieve, Flastaff, I am looking at which of them would suit the border best. (Googling each one over the next day or two and I may add a new variety if uncovered.)
Oh, and as part of the "compromise" I promised some large pots with family choices that I will drag about the garden in search of sun.

[FB.]

Most of the focus in this thread has been on the apples (I think because like me, they are everyone here's favourite)

Apples tend to be more tolerant of a variety of growing conditions than pears or plums. Apples (other than MM106) cope much better in areas with soils prone to drying in summer or in low-rainfall Eastern regions.
Plums and pears (and apple rootstock MM106) need good soil moisture availability.

Even getting apples to stay alive in my soil is a challenge*; each year I lose about 10-20% of my "trees" to canker and especially crown rot as a result of severe malnutrition and drought stress as a result of shallow, infertile, fast-draining, sandy-chalky-alkaline soil sitting over gravel and then chalk, in the driest part of Britain.

*
Notable that of the very few old apple trees there are in this area, almost all are Bramley and are old enough to almost certainly be on seedling, M2 or crab rootstock. Even those don't exceed about 6m in size despite being 50+ years old.

[FB.]

Like my apple shortlist MM106 - Sunset, Egremont Russet, Discovery, Scrumptious, Spartan, Fiesta, Red Falstaff, James Grieve, Flastaff, I am looking at which of them would suit the border best.

I would avoid most of them. I've tried almost all of them and only Spartan was trouble-free (although other growers find Spartan to be troublesome too). The others - for me at least - all have serious pest or disease issues that require spraying to deal with (pest and disease problems will vary with different locations). Spraying is a route I don't want to take, and a route which becomes more difficult the larger the tree.

[seneca196]

As usual, more variables and new information to add to the mix. This is why I've learn't more from this forum alone, then everything I've got from elsewhere. Great resource and knowledge base, not to mention actual experience. Wish I'd known about it when I had my allotment, but that was a long time ago, so it may not have been around.

Anyway, I am rather bound by my domestic situation, so have to appeal to a broad set of opinions and tastes. So, no to 4 apples, but then no to all plums too. So 50/50 apple/pears. Wish I had the freedom to do as I fancied and experiment, and more importantly learn through triumph and failure, but such is life at the moment. Will have to wait until I retire. Probably won't be standing then, so I can go into the border along with the trees.... if they too are still standing!

Back to fruit - my shortlist "Sunset, Egremont Russet, Discovery, Scrumptious, Spartan, Fiesta, Red Falstaff, James Grieve, Flastaff" had to be a compromise too unfortunately, but as it happens I love Russets so I had to include it. The list is not set in stone, so if needed a substitution can be made.
Have now also come across Bountiful, Beauty of Bath and one I've had many a time and enjoyed Worcester Pearmain (though Katy is meant to be similar and more reliable.)

Surely there must be some reliable multi-purpose, good all-rounders amongst all the pear varieties. They will have to be on Qunice A I think. I used to come across Conferences (not the most interesting I agree) planted all over the place and they appeared to be thriving with neglect and odd conditions. As a kid I climbed up one the size of a small house and in a tiny shaded garden.