Where are all the amateur apple breeders?

[digon]

Wow, that was quick to fruit.
Do you think grafting the crossed varieties in year two onto semi mature trees would speed up fruiting in general?

[FB.]

Do you think grafting the crossed varieties in year two onto semi mature trees would speed up fruiting in general?

Probably. The 'new' variety, after grafting onto the mature tree, could be pruned (in the correct way) in July to encourage fruit spurs for the following year. So graft in late winter 2014-2015, prune correctly in summer 2015, then enjoy the first flowers in spring 2016 and the first fruits in late summer or autumn 2016.

[boundtothesoil]

Wow, that was quick to fruit.
Do you think grafting the crossed varieties in year two onto semi mature trees would speed up fruiting in general?

I'm sure that FB is right on this. I've read about the system used by a large commercial breeder in France, where they grow the seedlings in polytunnels/greenhouses for the first season, under optimal conditions, attaining a height of 2m, then graft straight on to commercial rootstocks, transferring these into the field, achieving early flowering and opportunity for selection. I guess that the key to their system is that the seedlings have actually passed through the juvenile phase by the end of their first year (i.e. at least 70 internodes produced, with 122 internodes said to guarantee flowering capability).

Obviously I'm not in the same league as this in terms of objectives, space, resources, time etc. Plus I'm prepared to be quite patient and am interested in keeping the original seedlings on their own roots out of curiosity. Still, I'm quite heartened by the fact that one of my seedlings has flowered in its fourth year of growth. Next year should be better, with more of the seedlings reaching the critical number of internodes to pass out of the juvenile phase. So far the average number of internodes produced per year for me ( from three years of crossing) is around 45, but with quite wide variation amongst the seedlings.

[boundtothesoil]

I just thought I'd provide an update on the 'search for amateur apple breeders' I began three or so years ago. Many many hours of ***gling have passed and I can report that I've come across less than a handful of individuals in the UK. It truly is a lost tradition.

However, I've been drawn deeper and deeper into this activity and have just completed a website, which may be of interest to anyone wanting to get into apple breeding, as it contains a lot of guidance and methodology, plus quite a bit of science behind the various stages.

Home - YV Apple Breeders - Wales - United Kingdom


I should stress that this is not a commercial venture as yet, but it might go that way, if I can scale up my production of seedlings year on year. At the moment it's more of an obsession.

Hope it's of use.

[veggiechicken]

Thanks for sharing, btts and best wishes for the success of your obsession

[Guest]

Thank you for posting your site. Since getting into fruit I have found there to be a real lack of info/ forums/ sites for the UK. It is such a shame as skills are easily learnt it is just a case of patience and being willing. I look forward to seeing your progression and good luck

[chrisdb]

Mod EDIT - this is a quote from FB's post at http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gra...ml#post1135530

MM106 seems to make the variety more prone to disease, no doubt because MM106 doesn't do well here in the light sandy soil and mild low-rainfall climate but that's a known factor with MM106 which nurseries don't want to tell people because MM106 is so cheap to produce; other rootstocks are not as cheap or easy so there's less profit margin!
From the weather patterns here in recent years and the way MM106 is very stop-start in its behaviour, I'd say that MM106 needs at least 80cm of rainfall per year to behave normally and it prefers cooler/damper soil (but not waterlogged).
My 50-55cm of rainfall causes MM106 to runt-out and become sickly unless it has a very vigorous scion grafted.
Many MM106 trees have died in East Anglia because their roots will not grow in the dry soils of East Anglian summers; the trees fail to establish and in drier soils their slow-growing roots are easily are outcompeted by grass and weeds. With adequate rainfall MM106 can hold its own against weeds from day one and is an equal in vigour to MM111.

I think 80cm might be pessimistic. I live in Nottingham, which gets 70cm rain per year, and I don't really water my young trees on mm106. Despite that they're growing well and certainly aren't stunted like the ones in your pictures. One difference is that I don't plant trees in grass - in fact I'm in the middle of a long running war to keep the grass out of the 2/3 of the garden where I grow more interesting things.

I guess it also depends on the soil. 70cm on your soil might spend much less time in your garden before draining away than it does in mine.

On topic: I'd love to be an apple breeder, but don't really have space for the hundreds or thousands of seedlings needed to find a good one. I'd also love to know more about the parentage of the trees I do have - for example, I don't know anything about the ancestry and/or descendents of Cockle Pippin, although maybe no-one else does either.

[sparrow100]

Thank you for posting your site. Since getting into fruit I have found there to be a real lack of info/ forums/ sites for the UK. It is such a shame as skills are easily learnt it is just a case of patience and being willing. I look forward to seeing your progression and good luck

There's a fruit growers group on FB. PM me if you want details.

[Jimthebrewer]

Btts

I live on an old orchard in Essex that really doesn't have much time left. The owner who was my landlady died a couple of years ago and left it all to charity. Before I go I want to take some cuttings from some of the trees, kind of like taking a bit of the place with me and making sure it carries on somehow, somewhere. Would you be able to give me some advice on when and what is the best way to do this?

Many thanks

JTB

[flynch]

I want to get into fruit tree/Bush breeding but am too busy this year starting a new allotment. Next year fingers crossed, want to x black raspberry to a larger fruited red and for apples pitmaston pine Apple x court pendu plate. Anyone see the Pluerry in the usa sweet cherry x plum that would be interesting to try breed.

[Guest]

^^^Are these stone fruit crosses actually genuine? I have never looked into it properly and am not prepared to spend silly money to get the trees . The most I have looked into it is my Aprimira which is meant to be apricot x Mirabelle, but it is just a name and no such cross. It is just a yellow plum, a very nice yellow plum, but not an apricot nor a Mirabelle.

[Paulieb]

I want to get into fruit tree/Bush breeding but am too busy this year starting a new allotment. Next year fingers crossed, want to x black raspberry to a larger fruited red and for apples pitmaston pine Apple x court pendu plate. Anyone see the Pluerry in the usa sweet cherry x plum that would be interesting to try breed.

That sounds like an interesting plan. Do you have a mature tree of both those apples?

A problem you may have is that those two types of apples flower at different times. Pitmaston is a group D and Pendu Plat is a group G, so its highly likely the pollen for one won't be available when the other flower is ready.

[BUFFS]

The pips arising from an apple that has been cross pollinated are, by definition, going to be genetically different from both of the parents. However, even if a variety is self-fertile, and has been pollinated by pollen from another flower of the same variety, the pips will be genetically 'different' from the parent because of the processes of 'crossing over' and 'independent assortment of chromosomes' occurring during meiosis in the formation of the haploid gametes (pollen and egg cell). Although in this case the tree that grows from the pip should not possess any genes not originally present in the parent, the two versions of each gene it carries (one from the male and one from the female gamete) will not always match up with the two versions in the parental apple. Hence, it should differ in some ways from the parent tree and is definitely not a clone.

I am so glad you explained it in simple for the likes of me who would otherwise have been lost and bewildered....many thanks, I have read it from the first page and find it fascinating to learn a bit about the production of new types of apple, I might try a cross or two with the apples I have, you never know

[flynch]

I've no idea if the crosses are genuine you'd hope so if nurseries are selling them as such

[flynch]

That sounds like an interesting plan. Do you have a mature tree of both those apples?

A problem you may have is that those two types of apples flower at different times. Pitmaston isn't a group D and Pendu Plat is a group G, so its highly likely the pollen for one won't be available when the other flower is ready.

I have both flowering the first time this year, at least in my garden this year court pendu plate isn't far behind the pitmaston but that could be a one off, due to soil or location. According to the national fruit collection info I can see a 4 day gap between 90% petal fall of pitmaston and 10% flowering for court pendu plat. So will have to take pollen from the last flowers of pitmaston and store it for use somehow. I've seen references to drying and keeping in the fridge so will have to investigate further