Have Your Fruit Trees Disappointed?

[BUFFS]

we need a geographic list,ie such and such apples for somerset etc,so if you looked at the list ,went to your area section you could then see your options for your area,it would need people to send in lists of their successes and failures to make that possible,personally we get a lot of scab,so braeburn has been hammered,egramont tolerates it,bramley shrugs it off and thrives as an espalier,pears are a disaster,so over the winter,on your advice,i will be buying some of the hessle variety.with the peculiar summers we are getting even this list would need to be updated every so often..the james greive apple i bought several years ago at £3.99 is ,for its age outperforming other more "prefered" varieties and having a good flavour so that is one suited to ayrshire,cherries fruit okay,but blackfly is a constant problem,i hope you get the detailed info your work warrants...

[FB.]

Buffs

From my studies, it appears that many apple varieties have reasonable resistance to disease, but those that are more widely grown eventually end up with the diseases being forced to adapt or die.

In my opinion, what happens is:

An apparently super-resistant variety is bred.

Everyone plants it.

Apple diseases are defeated by this new variety, while old varieties are badly affected.

We all celebrate the death of disease and pat ourselves on the back for our ingenuity.

Then, in a derelict old orchard, or on a diseased old garden tree, one out of a billion scab spores is produced with a mutation, or a new mix of genetic combination from sexual reproduction with a different strain of scab.

This spore gets blown on the wind and settles on one of our super-resistant trees - not difficult, given how widely planted they are.

Amazingly, this mutant is able to bypass the plants defences. It causes a single spot on a single leaf. The owner doesn't notice.

The spot grows and releases more spores, which cause a few more spots on the tree.

The leaves fall and the mutant strain lays in the leaf litter, producing spores for next spring.

Next spring, wet weather gives favourable conditions for scab.

The mutant strain releases all those millions of spores, which land on many leaves of our once-resistant variety. This lone tree ends up covered in scab.

As the wet season progresses, wind and rain cause the mutant spores to spread to nearby trees.

After a few years, all nearby trees of this once-resistant variety are hopelessly infested with the new mutated strain of scab.

...................

Basically, what I'm saying is:

Most apple varieties have some disease resistance.

Some varieties are fortunate and have several resistance genes, while others have just one or two.

When a variety is widely planted, it encourages diseases to adapt and specialise to attack it.

If an apple variety is widely grown in a particular locality, old trees of that type may act as a reservoir of infection.

Ancient varieties had to be more disease resistant, due to lack of sprays, but if they were too widely grown, a large reservoir of disease was created on large numbers of old trees.

........................

and I'm also suggesting that:

If a variety is planted which is not commonly grown in a particular area, it may prove to be very disease resistant (although it may not like the climate or soil type; some like mild, some tolerate extreme cold, some like clay soil, some like sandy or chalk soil).
If it is just a lone tree, the chances of that mutant spore landing on it which could bypass its resistance are much less than if there are many trees of the same type which provide a greater number of potential landing sites for the new strain of disease.

[FB.]

Thanks for the reply FB. I've just got back from my hols and just picked up the reply.

As Chris has already mentioned, the old sizes of trees for most people are out so I believe the ability to grow a decent tree in a pot will become increasingly desirable. Plus they are going to be easier to net to protect the fruit from birds.

What size pot do you feel these two year old plants should be grown in, as well as the ideal soil mix?

Dave

I'm not a fan of growing fruits in containers because they dry out very easily in summer and erratic watering is not ideal for good fruit quality.
Additionally, the small amount of fruit produced (1-2 dozen per year) is barely worth the effort, considering that you can buy apples for about 20p each in the shops.

Regarding pot size: 12 inches (30cm) diameter minimum, preferably with plenty of depth for water-holding capacity deeper down in the pot.

Ideal pot contents: a mixture of topsoil and compost. I find compost too "airy", but topsoil doesn't hold as much water and nutrients.


.......................

I find that the really dwarf roots (M27 especially) aren't able to tolerate much abuse. I would much prefer M26 for pots; it has enough vigour to survive erratic watering and to repair itself when damaged. It is still easy to control by summer pruning if it turns out to be too vigorous.
Good choice of variety can make life so much easier when growing in pots.
Some varieties are small, compact and fruit at a young age regardless of rootstock, while others are large, open and don't want to fruit for many years.
If you put a Bramley on M27, M9 or M26, it will never make a good pot plant because it produces sparse side branches and partly tip-bears. One the other hand, Court Pendu Plat would make a good potted tree because it branches and spurs very freely.

It may come as a surprise that I see no problem growing apple trees on very vigorous roots. These would also give home growers "instant gratification" of fruit in the year of planting because the roots are powerful enough to establish within a few weeks and feed a medium crop and grow well too. On the other hand, medium or low-vigour roots can take years to establish before they can produce much decent fruit.

As I've suggested before: pairing a very strong rootstock with a slow-growing variety would produce trees which establish within weeks of planting, are likely to survive whatever nature throws at them, yet don't grow too quickly and can fruit heavily soon after planting.

[Tam]

This might be rather boring. I have Egremont Russet, Sunset, Worcester Pearmain, Charles Ross, Bramley, Wyken Pippen, Pitmaston Pineapple, Cornish Aromatic, May Queen and Allens Everlasting Apples - all on M26 rootstock, all bought from a nursery in the southwest of England thirty years ago. I also have a Comice pear of the same vintage. They all have performed well, but for the last couple of years the Sunset has been sulking. I think it is being starved of light as some neighbouring shrubs are in drastic need of some pruning. I don't think that I would buy May Queen or Allens Everlasting now, as I don't find the flavour very good. The Worcester Pearmain gets a little scab on a few fruits occasionally. I am basically on very heavy clay, but I have lightened it over the years with hard work, compost (loads) and some coarse sand from time to time.
I live in the Scottish borders.

[FB.]

Thanks, Tam.

I presume that with your heavy soil, you're on the Western side? There can be quite a difference in climate even between nearby towns.

I suspect that the MQ and AE aren't impressing you because the very late types usually need a long, mild, sunny autumn followed by a few months of storage to develop good flavour. I can't imagine that the climate is mild enough.
Here's a link to the Met Office climate/sunshine/rainfall data with lots of fascinating information >link<

My local area is so hot, dry and sunny, that just a few miles away they've chosen the sites as prime locations for building "solar farms", with the first ones coming online recently. I have no problem ripening these very late varieties or even some of the American varieties.

On the subject of scab:
My area sees extremely little rainfall (less than half the UK average). Although my own and friends Bramley, Cox, Worcester, Egremont and other "common" varieties don't suffer too much from disease, I have seen - only a few miles away in still-quite-dry locations - quite heavy scab or canker damage on these popular varieties, especially in the damper years of 2007-8.
How widely grown are apples in your area - especially the types that you grow?

[chris]

Speaking of scab, the little dwarf M7 I bought (Red Windsor) has some leaf scab. I went back to the garden centre to compare, and the trees (all the same stock) are *covered* in scab. Quite shocking how they still have them on sale, the fruits are covered in it, and the leaves are pretty much covered in scab spots.

I'm wondering if with my garden being more exposed than the garden centre it's helping with the scab front? Though I guess with the close proximity of fruit trees in the garden centre that doesn't help!

If that was my garden centre, I'd not be happy selling them -they look terrible!

[FB.]

Chris

The garden centre (or local nurseries) will be acting as a reservoir. This year, it sounds as if Western areas have had all the rain, while the East has seen the worst drought in many decades - many crops are useless in Kent and East Anglia.

An isolated tree is less likely to suffer as much than a groupd of trees (garden, nursery, orchard) where there are many of the same type which keep passing the disease back-and-forth between each other.

Tam & Chris
The picture of scab in the link is not unusual for Bramley apples (or Cox, Worcester, Superb etc) in nearby areas if they are caught by wet weather at the wrong time:
> link <
However, Bramley apples don't usually get as bad as the following link:
> link <

[chris]

I'll have to take a picture and show you the garden centre ones, it's shocking how bad it is! They've ample room to space them out more too, no idea why they don't. It seems to ahve spread to all the pears, quince/mirabelles/plums and cherries too. Shame, as I saw a tree I had my eye on there!

[FB.]

Chris

I would not expect the scab from the apples to spread to the pears; they have their own sub-species which attack them. Also; scab tends to specialise in attacing just one or two varieties (although in some rare instances the diseases can cross the species barrier). If you took apple scab from your Red Windsor, I suspect that it would have no ability to attack my Ashmead's Kernel - due to each having its own unique set of inherited genes which give some resistance. Your Red Windsr scab won't have the correct pathogenicity mechanisms to break through my Ashmead's Kernel.

I see several types of scab resistance in apples:

Thick skin:- simply makes it more difficult for the scab fungus to break through.

Russet coated apples:- not vulnerable to an enzyme which scab uses to break through the apple skin (also the dry russet skin doesn't stay wet after rainfall compared to smooth-skinned varieties)

Waxy/yeasty skin:- another barrier to scab entry and other organisms (yeasts) competing with the diseases when they try to establish.

Genes which produce anti-microbial substances:- these have a variety of effects to block the progress of the fungus.

Genes which cause cell death around the fungus:- a ring of dead cells forms around the fungus, cutting off its nutrient supply.

[chris]

Ah, perhaps it's because they're all so close together I just assumed that the scab problem was worse

Those cheapo lidl trees I have bought (Bramley, Golden Del, and something else) have it on their leaves worse then the R.W. I'll have to see how their fair when they're in the ground for next year (no fruit this year!)

[FB.]

Chris

When a tree is bought from a nursery or garden centre, it may have had a lot of sprays applied.
The sprays will have meant that the tree didn't need to activate its natural defences.
These sprays will also have killed the "good fungi" which can often seriously slow the growth of "bad fungi" by competing with them.
When you take the tree home, it is no longer sprayed and the large numbers of "bad fungi" multiply rapidly.
After a couple of seasons, the "good fungi" return and colonise the tree, which then makes it much more difficult for the disease-causing fungi to get a foothold.
From that point on, the trees disease resistance increases.

Additionally, the trees are no longer part of a great mass of same-type trees which spread disease back-and-forth (such as the long lines of trees in a nursery).

So you may find that in a year or two, you get less trouble with disease.

[jackie j]

I have an unknown Apple tree which is laden with fruit this year, so much so that a branch broke off with the weight. It could be a cox and approx 3 years old ( minimum ). Also an unknown Cherry that had loads of blossom and about 6 cherries which then dropped off. I added manure in the autumn and kept them both well watered as we have had a very dry spring. The soil is a bit claggy. I have planted a very young Opal Plum that I bought for £5.99p it has leaves this year so will see how it does.

[chris]

Chris

When a tree is bought from a nursery or garden centre, it may have had a lot of sprays applied.
The sprays will have meant that the tree didn't need to activate its natural defences.
These sprays will also have killed the "good fungi" which can often seriously slow the growth of "bad fungi" by competing with them.
When you take the tree home, it is no longer sprayed and the large numbers of "bad fungi" multiply rapidly.
After a couple of seasons, the "good fungi" return and colonise the tree, which then makes it much more difficult for the disease-causing fungi to get a foothold.
From that point on, the trees disease resistance increases.

Additionally, the trees are no longer part of a great mass of same-type trees which spread disease back-and-forth (such as the long lines of trees in a nursery).

So you may find that in a year or two, you get less trouble with disease.

Had never thought of this.. interesting - thank you

[shambayango]

I have 3 dwarf fruit trees in large tubs - a pear, apricot and apple. We have had them for 3 years now and they have not fruited apart from the apple which had some fruit last year but these fell off before they were ready to eat. The pear tree flowered this year and is supposed to be self-polinating but the flowers all fell off without getting polinated.

Last year I cut up comfrey leaves and mulched these around each tree, as seen on Gardener's World, and repeated this this year as well. Should we be feeding them with something?

If my partner had his way, we'd live in a bland concrete jungle with nothing to look at. He's already threatening to get rid of the fruit trees because he's got no patience at all. Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

Shamba Yango

[Glutton4...]

Hi FB.

My Folks have a small selection of fruit trees (labels long gone, I'm afraid), and all seem to be doing especially well this year, even the Plum that has never fruited since planting 8-10 years ago, has flowered and is bearing fruit this year. (Maybe it heard me planning it's removal!) Also, several of my Customers have fruit trees; Apple, Pear, Cherry, Plum... and all are doing better than usual this year. Soil round here (north Essex) is predominantly clay, but two of the gardens are on sand, and their trees are also thriving.