Worried about my new orchard!!!

[caribumamba]

Hey guys, I will preface by noting I found this older thread from this forum which is what leads me to the assumptions below about the hardiness of the rootstocks. https://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gr...rison-pictures. The FB user notes they can take lots of abuse and still be very happy and even thrive but that has not been my experience in just a few weeks since they came out of dormancy so I am trying to get a read on how bad the situation is for them.

I bought a few vigorous apple tree types with either M25 or M111. I was told these would be the most hardy for my poor heavy clay soil and require very little attention however after only a few weeks they look to be in trouble! The site they are on is south facing and fully exposed to the sun which in one aspect is good I guess cos they like the sun but also means they are taking the full brunt of the sun when it is is full force. The leaves are certainly looking distinctly crisped and baked on lots of them though some others still looking. There is a range of varieties so maybe that is down to genetics of those others or just stronger plants/better soil in that position or whatever individual differences.

I will note they are straight from the seller which I bought in November as maiden 1 year old bare root trees.

After a very strong start with most making leaves of varying size as spring has begun and quite a few bearing flowers most are now curling up and showing various levels of what I guess is lack of water stress. Lots curling, and the flowers seem 'stuck' and not opening any more while other trees have fully opened - which are the few that are doing better and looking strong still.

Worse still is that quite a few have their leaves turning brown or even black and again seem to have stopped opening up any more!

I am guessing lack of water is the problem. The ground is cracked and bone dry. I read though that clay is supposed to retain water but it must not be that much if they are showing such signs so soon. It hasn't rained properly for maybe 2 weeks or more and set to carry on like that for the foreseeable looking at the 14 day forecast.

I have limited water for even myself, being off-grid, but I do have a tiny trickle stream which I can use right now but it did dry up last spring/summer with the droughts and it looks like this year is shaping up to be the same.

I have watered them a couple of times this weeks but no dramatic changes. Maybe it takes a little while to show improvements? The soil is rock solid - did I mention heavy clay ?? - but I did make sure yesterday to watch and let it soak in. In between those great cracks from the dryness and would bubble and hiss a couple of times due to how deprived it had been!

What I'm mainly wondering is will they still survive until the next rains even if I don't water them? They are supposed to be really hardy rootstocks right? so I am surprised how quickly they are showing signs of trouble. I am wondering if they would
just go into a dormancy period again, like with winter, and then perk up once the water comes. I thought these rootstocks would be pretty much hands free which is why I chose them.

I have to walk to the bottom of my land and walk all the way up the hill with the pale of water which is a chore if I have to do it constantly. I have lots of other stuff to be doing so if I could safely leave them to fight for themselves, which is what I was expecting with these rootstocks, then I would prefer that but of course I don't want them to die from neglect and have to start again. I just have no idea how bad the situation is and whether they need immediate care lest they perish or if they have more survival tricks up their sleeves to weather the (lack of) storm.

[ChingfordHarry]

I think that if the ground around the apples is dry and cracked, then lack of water is the probable cause of your problems. I'd expect to have to water newly-planted trees/shrubs in the first two or three years until they have established.

I'd be tempted to give each of them a really good watering and add a good layer of organic mulch (something like mushroom compost or garden compost, 75 - 100mm thick) extending to ~30cm from the trunk around each tree, keeping it clear of the trunk.

My new apple cordons planted into heavy clay (my plot goes from completely waterlogged to hard as a brick as soon as I turn my back...) at the beginning of March need a good soak a couple of times a week or the leaves start to crinkle.

[caribumamba]

I think that if the ground around the apples is dry and cracked, then lack of water is the probable cause of your problems. I'd expect to have to water newly-planted trees/shrubs in the first two or three years until they have established.

I'd be tempted to give each of them a really good watering and add a good layer of organic mulch (something like mushroom compost or garden compost, 75 - 100mm thick) extending to ~30cm from the trunk around each tree, keeping it clear of the trunk.

My new apple cordons planted into heavy clay (my plot goes from completely waterlogged to hard as a brick as soon as I turn my back...) at the beginning of March need a good soak a couple of times a week or the leaves start to crinkle.

Ok ye as I thought then. getting water is a real problem though with the serious droughts more common due to the off-grid situation. I used urine on my plants, into the roots of course not splashing about on the edible parts, last year and they seemed to like it well enough and apparently a good fertilizer in its own right. I guess apple trees won't mind it either? Might provide added nutrients too?

Make a few litres per day and then where I would just empty out the chamber pot in the mornings into the grass put it on the trees instead.

I read it is 'too strong' and must be diluted with water but don't believe that really given my experience last year.

Getting whatever liquid to absorb down into the roots is the real problem with the clay once it has turned to stone though. Plus they are on a slope so runs off but with care of the pouring it will stay there and soak in just very slowly I think.

Little and often I guess for a while.

[ChingfordHarry]

The only thing I would use neat urine on is the compost heap.

[JoaoLeaftide]

Dry cracked ground around newly planted trees is a bad sign, they really do need a lot of water in the first couple of seasons. ChingfordHarry's advice about mulching is spot on, a decent layer keeps moisture in and the roots much happier. I'd give them a really good soak first though, not just a sprinkle, enough to get down to the root zone.

[caribumamba]

Dry cracked ground around newly planted trees is a bad sign, they really do need a lot of water in the first couple of seasons. ChingfordHarry's advice about mulching is spot on, a decent layer keeps moisture in and the roots much happier. I'd give them a really good soak first though, not just a sprinkle, enough to get down to the root zone.

Yes but the problem is the solid clay so there is no 'soaking' I reckon. I was thinking about it last night and clay has long been used as an impermeable pond/canal liner hasn't it so following that doesn't it mean that the clay will be impermeable and thus none will get to the roots?

I imagine it can't be totally impermeable? as plants do grow in it, just very slow to permeate?

[caribumamba]

The only thing I would use neat urine on is the compost heap.

I am happy to experiment on this.

As per my above comment, how well do you find you are able to get the water to soak in to your own solid clay?

Btw compost counts as both a soil amender and a mulch right? I find the term mulch so misleading as it can mean so many things or be so many things.

I am guessing it is not a good idea to break up the compacted clay they are in to try and amend it with compost now as it would just break their roots in the process and just put a layer on top as 'mulch'?

I have a couple of piles that have been waiting for a good use. Got some seeds/plants en route for one pile so could make a good use for this other one on the apple trees.

I have been making a fence this past week and want to finish it off in the next few days which will take most of my time but will be able to focus on the apples properly then but better squeeze in some watering in between in the meantime.

[ChingfordHarry]

I am happy to experiment on this.

Plenty of people have done the experiment which is why people say dilute it. In your case, my feeling is that it's water that's missing, not nutrients.

As per my above comment, how well do you find you are able to get the water to soak in to your own solid clay?

By adding buckets of the stuff. Over the last fortnight, I have been giving each 1 - 1.2m apple in the cordon ~10 litres a day until the leaves started to perk up.

Btw compost counts as both a soil amender and a mulch right? I find the term mulch so misleading as it can mean so many things or be so many things.

Indeed. Basically a mulch is something to cover the surface to suppress evaporation and weed growth, which is why I specified "organic mulch".

I am guessing it is not a good idea to break up the compacted clay they are in to try and amend it with compost now as it would just break their roots in the process and just put a layer on top as 'mulch'?

Exactly. With luck some of the mulch will get washed down into the soil via the cracks and help to reduce the amount of water that just runs through.

It's also possible to use gypsum (calcium sulfate) to ameliorate clay soils and make them more workable (the calcium replaces the sodium in the clay. A possible side-effect with apple trees is that it might help with bitter pit, which is caused by calcium deficiency but exacerbated by lack of water). From what I've read, ~200g - 1kg per square metre is the appropriate dosage, and it takes from a couple of months to a couple of years to give a noticeable improvement. Curiously, although chemically speaking gypsum is purely inorganic, it seems to be allowed in organic cultivation (which is why arguments about "inorganic" and "organic" should not be conducted between chemists (like me) and gardeners (like me)...)

[caribumamba]

...

Oh, a few days have passed now and also some much needed rain! Most are looking much better now but ironically some of the ones I was most concerned about, which hadn't barely budded at all, have budded and looking like they are getting established while one or two that looked strongest when I first made the post - with blooming flowers, one particularly, are worst off!

I would like to know - if the flowers and leaves all fall off - which looks the way this one in particular is headed - does it mean the tree is dead or do they have more tricks up their sleeve even if they lose all their initial foliage? I am unclear whether they can grow new material from the nubs where they were before or if those parts are then dead and/or if they will grow new ones later? With this one the whole of the stalk was flowers pretty much with just a couple of leaves but they have pretty much all shriveled and withered back and gone brown/black with only some white of the flower left but that growth looks done for so I am wondering if it can still grow more and is there possibility still positive action happening underground that I am not seeing? because above ground it is looking sorry for itself, despite the initial strong start - like it overexerted itself with all those flowers to begin.

So are they a lost cause if all their foliage falls off or not necessarily? The other one which isn't looking great has had quite a lot of leaf damage but tentatively looks like more is pushing through now but can't say the same about the one above where at the moment just wilting and damage.

As there has been rain I don't think that is the problem now and also that most of them are looking various levels of health and growth. So just have to watch and hope for this couple?

[ChingfordHarry]

if the flowers and leaves all fall off - which looks the way this one in particular is headed - does it mean the tree is dead or do they have more tricks up their sleeve even if they lose all their initial foliage

Probably not dead. I'd expect to get another flush of leaves in the next few weeks or couple of months. Producing blossom takes quite a few resources from any plant, so it might just have exhausted its reserves for the moment.

Sometimes trees won't recover and do die (happened to me recently with a Norfolk Royal Russet on M9) - and sometimes branches on a tree that is obviously dead at the trunk will produce a (final) flush of leaves (happened at our allotments with a 20+ year-old Reverend W. Wilkes last year, but it's now completely dead).

If there are no leaves by this time next year it probably is dead (but I had a chip-budded Anise that sat as a bud for two or three years before I cut off the (healthy) rootstock above the graft, and now have a healthy tree, so even this isn't a sure-fire way to tell!).

[caribumamba]

Probably not dead. I'd expect to get another flush of leaves in the next few weeks or couple of months. Producing blossom takes quite a few resources from any plant, so it might just have exhausted its reserves for the moment.

Sometimes trees won't recover and do die (happened to me recently with a Norfolk Royal Russet on M9) - and sometimes branches on a tree that is obviously dead at the trunk will produce a (final) flush of leaves (happened at our allotments with a 20+ year-old Reverend W. Wilkes last year, but it's now completely dead).

If there are no leaves by this time next year it probably is dead (but I had a chip-budded Anise that sat as a bud for two or three years before I cut off the (healthy) rootstock above the graft, and now have a healthy tree, so even this isn't a sure-fire way to tell!).

Ok, thanks, so early days yet, as I only planted them all back in November bought from the supplier - 1 year old.

[caribumamba]

Probably not dead.

I was away for a couple of weeks and I have come back there are quite some changes, the most surprising of which one of them has about 4 or 5 fruit growing already and this is the first year I have had them! Most things say you will be waiting something like half a decade for the first fruit for M25s!!!

The one I was referring to before still looked dead from a distance but as I got closer there are a teeny couple of new leaves at the bottom so there is life in it yet! Another one that was looking alive but struggling has lost its leaves and no new growth that I could see but hopefully that will make a comeback like this other one.

Got some good rain forecast for a few days now.

Others look very healthy with lots of leaves, some with only a few. It is a very mixed bag which I guess you would expect since very tree is a different variety.

[ChingfordHarry]

good news!

Now you've got the "June drop" to look forward to - I noticed apples on the ground yesterday (appropriate!) for the first time this year, but with luck after it you'll still have something to taste in the Autumn.

[ChingfordHarry]

oh - are the "teeny couple of new leaves at the bottom" at the bottom above or below the graft? On a young tree it should be easier to tell

[caribumamba]

oh - are the "teeny couple of new leaves at the bottom" at the bottom above or below the graft? On a young tree it should be easier to tell

Oh definitely above. The grafts are bare as far as I remember, which, I presume, they should be.

Oh and having looked at the other trees there are 2 more showing apples! I had never read this happening for the more vigorous rootstocks. Certainly a nice surprise. That is going to be so great trying those new (to me) and rare varieties to sample this new nectar.