Economic growth

[donnakebab]

I think you'll find we have the most educated bar staff in the world. Who may never earn enough to pay back their loan.

[Two_Sheds]

In terms of technology oil is pretty much obsolete but it's going to be used to it's very last drop because a few men make lots of money out of it

New oil fields are being discovered all the time - the problem is getting to it, ie drilling up Greenland

That is the nature of man.

It's the nature of greedy wo/men, who are allowed, nay encouraged, to be so

[donnakebab]

Yes oil is being discovered all the time but that doesn't mean because it's there we have to use it whatever the cost of extraction, whether financial or environmental.

When I said 'This is the nature of man' I wasn't have a dig at man as opposed to women, I meant mankind. Sometimes mankind needs a good sharp smack on the wrist and some strong words.

I got the ruler across my hand at infant school once for swinging on the coat pegs. It worked for me.

[Two_Sheds]

When I said 'This is the nature of man' I wasn't have a dig at man as opposed to women, I meant mankind.

I know you weren't. Your implying that it's the nature of mankind is what I was (softly) objecting to - it's the nature of greedy mankind, not everyone takes as much as they can grab

[Two_Sheds]

Speaking of oil, greed, waste and "not enough money in the pot" ... just as a for instance, OH was last week sent on a training course in Asia. 12 of them: plane tickets �3k each, hotel bills & hospitality god knows how much. A jolly, basically, which could have been done in the UK for a fraction of the cost, but because there's so much money swilling around up there in that (private sector) industry, it's no expense spared (on the bosses).

This is fairly typical at the top of his industry, where they just give out �150 train tickets for London meetings, which can be got for �25 if you shop around and book ahead.

His office hierarchy are going to be on the Xmas party circuit any day now, which is basically a fortnight of all day, expense-account lunches and very little work (just "networking").

Instead of those top boys keeping their money in offshore tax free countries - money which is spent on cars, nice houses, holidays, gadgets and booze - I think it would be so lovely if they set up some philanthropic stuff like youth clubs, apprenticeships etc. with some of their income. For what the top boys waste on an unnecessarily lavish corporate lifestyle and executive toys, the company could employ several hundred more workers at the bottom of the ladder.


I don't live in the real world, do I ?

[Potstubsdustbins]

2Sheds I like some of your ideas but you said it GREED!!!! I admit I have done it myself in a small way, company car, credit card, five star hotels etc. And of course the higher up the ladder the more expensive the perks.

Colin

[snohare]

I don't live in the real world, do I ?

There is no disgrace in being alone in seeing a better way, or seeing harsh realities the uncaring ignore.
They live in a fool's paradise, which might outlast them...or it might not. This is a turbulent age.

[Hilary B]

I think we can safely say that ALL threads about politics in general come with the assumption that people are concerned - but the concerns will always change from generation to generation, but in a way, they stay the same. But the thing I try to point out is that we go on about the yoof of today but who is it that taught and trained the yoof? Yoof are only trained by the older generation so people who complain about it only have themselves to blame.

I do believe that every generation has complained about school standards and about kids/teenagers/young adults - after all they are the easy option. I'm not having a go, but what do you expect when you start threads, people are bound to disagree in some parts and agree in others?

Do you think it ironic that you thought the next world war could be about water, but yet subsequent wars have been about oil?

I think the situation presents us with a huge opportunity to look at sustainability but without the people at the top being in the pockets of big business - we don't stand a hope of them doing anything for us - so we have to do it ourselves or support those that are doing it for you.

ALL generalisations (including this one) risk distortion. The fact that SOME parents etc have mis-trained the young folk in their lives does not make it the fault of ALL older people, any more than ALL young people are useless. The fact remains that there ARE problems, largely of expectation and we need to look at what (if anything) can be done NOW, rather than trying to fix the blame for how we got here!
Successive governments have encouraged the notion of academic success being vital, and a route (implied, the ONLY route) to financial success, and of all good things being related to money. How do we now turn that around, get non-academic skills recognised, and help potential trainers of skilled people to actually afford to do the training?
You can't blame a 1-man business when he sees that training an apprentice will cost him a fortune! Should government allow suitable businesses to charge 'teaching fees' against part of the minimum wage? Would that make apprenticships viable (of course it would need to be VERY well controlled to prevent exploitation, but subject to that, is it unreasonable as a principle?) Maybe a better option would be for the government to pay the employer who is teaching an apprentice, but the government hasn't got the money either (it all comes from the hard-pressed taxpayer).

[Two_Sheds]

Successive governments have encouraged the notion of academic success being vital, and a route (implied, the ONLY route) to financial success

I believe the "everyone should go to uni" ethos was simply a replacement for YTS, ie there never were jobs for all these kids, so keep them in education for as long as possible

How do we now turn that around, get non-academic skills recognised

It seems that Cameron is now getting it, that the financial sector can't be the UK's only source of money: we need to start manufacturing again, if only because cheap Chinese goods will soon become a thing of the past, as China becomes more affluent

[SarzWix]

Who's blaming a 'one-man business' for anything?

[zazen999]

ALL generalisations (including this one) risk distortion. The fact that SOME parents etc have mis-trained the young folk in their lives does not make it the fault of ALL older people, any more than ALL young people are useless.

I think you are deliberately missing the point....which is that when people moan about the youth they only have themselves to blame as by definition they are older and hence part of the generation that 'dealt the cards' so to speak. I was responding to Donna's point about things changing in between kids and the kids only have the experience that the grown-ups design - so it's hardly their fault, is it?

You can't blame a 1-man business when he sees that training an apprentice will cost him a fortune!

I thought I asked what his answer was? What's yours then?

[VirginVegGrower]

I think we should all keep calm and carry on
Where's that tin hat I've read so much about?
TS I agree avarice lies behind all the world's troubles however not all companies in the private sector have money to burn. Training budget was cut to zero in Hewlett Packard as far back as 2007. Private companies have been offering voluntary and enforced redundancy in their housekeeping for over five years. The public sector needs to catch up. They've been lucky until now. I don't see the problem though as the people at the bottom. Upper and middle strata where I see more money being burnt in the public sector. Have worked for the previously nationalized railway, the MoD, the NHS computer contract, DWP, DVLA, Met Police and many more that simply hemorrhage tax payer's cash.

[veggiechicken]

I think we should all keep calm and carry on
Where's that tin hat I've read so much about?
......
The public sector needs to catch up. They've been lucky until now. I don't see the problem though as the people at the bottom. Upper and middle strata where I see more money being burnt in the public sector. Have worked for the previously nationalized railway, the MoD, the NHS computer contract, DWP, DVLA, Met Police and many more that simply hemorrhage tax payer's cash.

That's emotive stuff VVG - especially your use of the word "haemorrhage". Please do not forget that public sector employees also pay taxes. In fact I would go so far as to say there is far less scope for tax evasion in the public sector than there is in the private sector.
I'm an ex civil servant. I took voluntary early redundancy some years ago when cut backs were required as I believed I could get by whilst younger people needed the job more to pay their mortgages and bring up families.
Whatever sector you work in, times are hard. Its not a question of them and us, public versus private. We're all in it together and cooperation and understanding is the way forward, not division.

[SarzWix]

I think when VVG talks of the haemorrhage of cash, she's talking about waste; things like paying to replace all the computers but by the time it's implemented properly the technology is out of date, and other similar nightmare scenarios which we've all heard about. Not the payment of legitimate wages and pensions for people who work hard.

[snohare]

Upper and middle strata where I see more money being burnt in the public sector.

It seems to me nowadays that wherever we look, organisations are failing in purpose and actions. Enron, banks, governments, health boards, quangos, regulatory agencies...the only thing I see in common is lack of accountability. The bigger the organisation is the more and more lines of responsibility get blurred, purposely or otherwise, and when things go wrong too often the culprits have a six or seven figure golden parachute lined up - due to a payoff that should never have been allowed into the contract in the first place. If you are paying top dollar for the " top quality talent" you need, then said wunderkind will not need an "If I get sacked I get..." clause.
Sort this issue out, magically you will find that the right decisions get made because you don't have incompetence hiding behind obfuscation, and training will have the funding it needs.
Democracy is as good for business as capitalism, insofar as it creates a momentum for change when things go wrong. Lose accountability, and you inevitably lose efficiency.