Or just a little bit of both

[maytreefrannie]

So many man have posed the point, as men are wont to do,
What is it women want to be liberated to?
Or, contrarywise, alternatively, liberated from?
I answer them with dignity, uprightness and aplomb:

He errs who thinks that sameness is the ideal I promote.
I’ve already got an intellect, a licence and a vote.
And though to education and high station I aspire,
I have no wish to carry in the coal or change a tyre,
Or slither down a manhole or dig trenches six by three,
Or dispense with playful glances and engaging repartee.
I’ll take your seat on any bus and feel no loss of face.
In short, I merely ask the chance to take my rightful place
In science or in politics, in art or high finance,
Maintaining still the right to murmur, “Vive la difference.”

[lindyloo]

this is an interesting thread! a couple of thoughts spring to mind, following on from some comments, so i will just ramble on as ussual-- shopping and girlie talk- hate it; far prefer the company of men, or strong individual women

.men changing diapers; reminds me of coming home and finding my husband bent over my baby to change him, wearing a military issue gas mask on his face! i ask you !! baby could have been traumatised for life.

men washing up- well, i have a theory that men are so useless at doing certain things, because they know that women will eventually get on and do it themselves. if god gave you hands, you can wash up- especially if someone else has cooked.

not sure that womens lib had entirely the desired effect- it just let men get away with certain things they used to take for granted were thier role, such as holding doors, letting us go first, carrying heavy things, etc. what i call common courtesy.

and on the other side of it, i truly dislike seeing men buying their partners monthly feminine supplies; i really dont think that is on. and i do wonder about how things are progressing; in the sixties and seventies women protested and wanted to get more than being just a housewife, perfect home,perfect makeup hair hostess etc. and now the media is all about perfection and image, conditioning women into little walking talking barbies again. i think it puts a lot of pressure on us all.

[Bramble_killer]

not sure that womens lib had entirely the desired effect- it just let men get away with certain things they used to take for granted were thier role, such as holding doors, letting us go first, carrying heavy things, etc. what i call common courtesy.

surely the whole point of women's lib was that you could learn how to carry your own shopping and hold doors open for men as well as women? I am happy when a man (or a woman) holds the door for me but I do not begrudge them when they don't.

women always complain they aren't treated as equals but they don't expect to be treated like equals. It's immensely frustrating. If I'm equal then I carry my fair share.

[Veggiemama]

well, i am ALL woman...in that, i am a very curvy petite lady. I have fluttered my eyelashes, not intentionally but just something i do.

People are often surprised, even in this day and age, with the things i am able to do. i will give anything i am interested in a go, give it a 100%, but am not too proud to admit defeat.

I like to be able to do a lot of things myself without having to rely on anyone, but there are of course a lot of things i cant do, mainly to do with physical strength.

i dont expect men to open doors for me etc, but it is nice for anyone to open a door for me, male or female. I think that sort of stuff is just down to manners.

I was brought up to respect my elders and have good manners. I will often give up a seat for a pregnant lady, or an elderly person.....just manners and being thoughtful.

I like to be independant, but love knowing i have a man with big shoulders there for me when i need him.

I believe we all have a bit of both in us, it just depends on our beliefs, interests, upbringing etc and so on.

I know of some women who expect to be treated equal to men, they want the same career prospects etc and so on BUT they still expect a man to pay for everything, and do all the male roles....sort of having it all really. They only want to be equal in some ways.

Me, i just get on with life, enjoy it, know my limits, treat everyone the same, have good manners and just generally be thoughtful towards others....no male or female role, just me being me.

I just want to be ME. If i am able to do something, then i will. If i cant then i will ask Oh for help..................................and because of my petite curvy body, i nearly always get the help i need....
Dont misunderstand this as me using my body to get what i want, i dont, but i know from what my Oh says to me, that he kinda likes little petite me needing help


I am sure i have gone way off topic.

Vm

[Veggiemama]

I sort of agree that the media and society put pressure on women to be perfect....stepford wives really.

BUT, i dont feel the pressure because i am my own person. I have never felt the need to follow what every one else does. I just do what i want to do, wear what I want to wear.

I do think that for younger people, the pressure is certainly there.

Maybe i am a bit odd though

[lindyloo]

bramble killer; no you misunderstand what i am saying; i am all for freedom of choice and women being able to live thier lives as they want , with the same oppertunities as men, IF that's what they want. but, i dont think that means men should get away with a lack of courtesy, and some men, not all, from my observations, just use womens lib to get away with putting even more onto women. and if i am in a relationship with a man or even in their company, as they are bigger and stronger than me, they should be willing to do the heavier stuff. and in actual fact, i think they like to do it, they are just afraid of the reaction that they might get if they offer. well, i am telling any men out there, feel free to treat me with courtesy and consideration at any time- i will truly appreciate it. and dare i say, that as men ussually earn way more than me, i expect them to pay if they want to enjoy an evening oif my company! ( did i say i was self employed!! did i say as what ? ( lol-just a joke) but i am self employed, and i do heavy physical work too, and my brain thinks like a man, but, when i am not working, i expect to be treated well and cherished, with old fashioned courtesy.

[lindyloo]

veggiemania; totally agree with what you say. i dont want the best of both worlds, but i do what i have to do, workwise, and love that too, but appreciate traditional roles when it comes to relationships, and think that we each add our strengths and weaknesses to the interaction between each other, so if a man is stronger or has more money, i am ok with him contributing that, if my strengths are more nurturing, then thats my contribution, and as long as the people involved are happy, then thats fine, in my book. i am not ashamed to say that i like a strong man by my side, but i am happy living alone too-i dont need a man, but i certainly can appreciate a good one.

[lindyloo]

bramblekiller; sorry to keep on, have just got to say, so i dont come over as a proper little princess,or worse--- i am cheap to entertain, hate going out to dinner, dont smoke, teetotal, etc. outdoor stuff for me, so no man would ever be out of pocket trying to impress me, and i think its partly a generational thing too, as when i grew up, women made meals, picnic baskets, etc. men went out to work and came home to find a well cooked meal and the background details taken care of. if men asked you out they paid for the evening, and things like barbecues, picnics, they supplied the drinks, and ussually the meat too, whilst the women did the prep. and deserts etc.

if a man asked you out , he paid, if it went well, then you might ask him to come for a homecooked meal. all traditional stuff, and it works for me.

[Hilary B]

Equality doesn't mean identicality (which probably isn't a word).
Yes, women should have just as much chance of political position IF THEY WANT IT. That doesn't mean that half of all MPs should be women, because it is quite likely that there are less women than men who have any interest in that side of politics.
Yes, boys and girls should have access to the same school subjects, but if most of the girls want to cook and take only mild interest in metalwork, while most of the boys would rather make large interesting assemblies of metal and do only the basics in cooking, that doesn't mean things aren't equal!
Yes, equal work should get equal pay, but that doen't mean that if you can't find men doing a particular job you should pull something out of thin air and say the pay for this 'all women' job should be the same as the 'all men' job you have chosen at random.
There are a few areas where nature says "no, it isn't all equal" and in those few areas, the law should get out of it, and stay out, and the combination of work and babies is one such area!

[Polly Fouracre]

I read somewhere an interesting fact. We are all female in embryo and then at a certain point of developement certain factors kick in to determine whether we be male or female.
Surely everything can't go exactly according to plan which is why some of us are one or the other, a bit of both or born one but are really the other, if you see what I mean!
Therefore we must all have a certain percentage of one and another of the the other in our makeup. Does that make sense?

[Snadger]

I read somewhere an interesting fact. We are all female in embryo and then at a certain point of developement certain factors kick in to determine whether we be male or female.
Surely everything can't go exactly according to plan which is why some of us are one or the other, a bit of both or born one but are really the other, if you see what I mean!
Therefore we must all have a certain percentage of one and another of the the other in our makeup. Does that make sense?

The bible must have it back to front then cos the creationists reckon a bone was taken from Adam to make Eve, methinks! lol

[binley100]

women always complain they aren't treated as equals but they don't expect to be treated like equals. It's immensely frustrating. If I'm equal then I carry my fair share.

Men and women aren't equal and never will be unless men have to go through pain and inconvenience once a month, and then carry and give birth.

[Brengirl]

I presume that women are the producers and men should be the providers.
Somewhere, somehow it went pear shape.

[Bramble_killer]

Men and women aren't equal and never will be unless men have to go through pain and inconvenience once a month, and then carry and give birth.

too true

[its hilly]

I was brought up by parents who believed that ALL children should have the basics of independence. ie boys cook and clean, girls know how to wire a plug and put oil/petrol/water in the car etc as well as 'traditional' skills.
I cant sew, but can cook. Have no maternal instincts but am a good aunty (mostly) Couldnt build a brick wall, but can drystone wall very slowly. Am impatient with human minor illness, but can happily clean up and stitch human or animal in emergency.
OH can, and will cook, iron and wash dishes, I can and will help him with building work and car maintenence. Mostly we do everything between us, both picking the jobs we find easiest or enjoy most. We cook togather as we both enjoy it. If I get him to lift things its cos he's stronger (although I lift 25kg bags of feed without thinking, so am no weakling) and if he lets me do the clothes washing it's because I get stuff cleaner
He doesnt cry at soppy films like me, but did cry when my horse had to be PTS because of colic.
Suppose we are both practical, but have a dippy streak..so it all works.