van v. cyclist: driver sacked

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Many under age drivers?
Yep - I live in Manchester remember!

I see far more adults on bikes than kids... partly because adult cyclist numbers are climbing and partly because most parents are so unspeakably paranoid about their kids they won't let them outside the house if they aren't going to school (or a friend's house and then "call me the instant you get there").

1001? That was a bit quick!

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The only times that cyclists or horses bug me(and it only happens very rarely)is when there's a rally or several horses riding together....on country roads it can be almost impossible to overtake safely when you've got ten cyclists or four horses back to back to overtake.

It's a common gripe but think of it this way. Some horses and most cyclists go about the same speed as a tractor. We're usually not all that fussed about driving 10 to 15mph behind farmer giles - but swap his tractor for a pedal bike and bring the hands and farmers from some local farms along for the annual bike ride to the next village along and suddenly the 10 to 15mph speed is intolerable.

Any idea why that might be? I certainly can't get my head around it.

[di]

I'm not talking about one or two cyclists...when they have their little(big)rallies you've often got at least ten riding together...going that much faster than normal but still not fast enough to sit behind.When the road bends nearly every hundred yards you're not able tosafely pass all ten of them.I think there should be a maximum of four riding so close together with gaps of at least a hundred yards between each group.
Same with horses...if there's only two to overtake it's obviously safer than four or five.

[Bigmallly]

However, I also think car drivers (including me) have a responsibility to look out for people doing stupid things like that and react accordingly and in a safe manner.

Hence the comment about defensive driving courses, they teach you to expect the unexpected. A compitent driver should be able to say at any given time what is in the windscreen (picture) & also what is behind & at either side of them. That's the beauty of defensive driving, to pre-empt what the other cars, cyclists or pedestrians are going to do, before they actually do it.

[reetnproper]

We also live in a rural area with narrow, winding roads and it is very frustrating to find yourself behind a pack of cyclists, 3 or 4 abreast (as happened only the opther day), not only because it can cause drivers to take risks in passing which they normally wouldn't but because it actually contravenes the Highways act which states that cyclists should: never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends.

I have lost count of the number of times I've sat at lights and seen cyclists sail through red with absolutely no regard for traffic OR pedestrians who, for some reason think that their GREEN light means it's safe for them to proceed and then find themselves dealing with an unjustifiably irrate cyclist, who believes they own the road.

Now if cyclists were required, by law, to have some sort of unique registration number, clearly visible to other road users AND pedestrians which could then be used to track down transgressors, then a lot of the antipathy between all camps may well ease because, by the very nature of the beast, they would be force to comply with the highway laws.

Reet
x

[Caro]

Caro - through the magic of Google Earth and Google Street View I've found the bridge you're talking about and had a wee virtual bike-ride over it to see what it might be like.

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It looks like a difficult road to cycle anyway - but the inadequate cycle lane and badly thought out advance stop certainly won't be making things any easier.

In fact, the more I think about that layout, the worse it seems.


How's that for a cyclists perspective?

Excellent Organic, thank you

There are very few cyclists who use it and I guess it's easy to see why!

[SarzWix]

Actually, all slow moving vehicles are required by the Highway Code to pull-over at set intervals to allow queues of traffic to go past them. And a convoy of slow-moving vehicles is supposed to have a police escort, and the same pull over rules apply.
(I've seen farmers being 'done' by the police for holding up traffic and not pulling over where there was provision to do so.)

Never seen a cycle rally doing the same thing though...

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Mally - I agree about the level of awareness needed to really drive safely. I've not been on a course but that's pretty much how I drive now - it probably comes from my cycling.


Andy&Di - I gathered you didn't mean just a couple - I'm just curious as to what the difference is between sitting behind a tractor - particularly one hauling a trailor laden with about 30 tons of hay bales - that's trundling along at 15mph leaving you no way to pass it and sitting behind a pack of cyclists doing the same speed. Either way you can't pass safely.

I've never been able to get my head around why we'll kinda grumble a bit but be happy enough to sit behind one and see the other as a rolling road block that should be banned.

EDIT: To acknowledge Sarz comment above about allowing people to pass where there's provision. If there is a safe way to do so then absolutely, slow vehicles should allow faster ones to pass.
How much slower are we talking though? Any time I've seen a pack of cyclists they tend to be doing somewhere in the region of 25 to 30mph anyway - not exactly a crawl and on most country roads, more appropriate than national speed limits.
Even with that said - I wonder how far people would be happy to sit behind a group of cyclists between passing opportunities/pulling in as compared to sitting behind a tractor. If there's a difference, why so?

Reet - I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about the above point too - though I'd like to point out that I agree riding in a peleton isn't a smart move on roads open to traffic. Let's say a group of 50 riders was in single or double file as appropriate and riding in the proper road position, would you still be happy enough waiting behind them at 15 mph for as long as you'd wait behind a tractor? Maybe for several miles while you wait for a safe opportunity to pass without having to force your way into the line of bikes to get back onto the right side of the road if oncoming traffic appears ahead?

The arguments against cycle registration are too numerous to list, the issue itself is a bit of a red herring and in this thread and would generally be a distraction from the topic which is the interaction between cyclists and other road users.

We can get into it if you like, but I suspect it wouldn't lead anywhere useful.

If it's a topic that does interest you I'd suggest having a look at a few bicycle advocate websites to see the arguments against... oh and those sites are almost invariably as opposed to cyclists running reds and the likes as those who've spoken out against it in this thread.

[lindyloo]

have to admit that i get very annoyed with convoys of cyclists, and horse riders who dont go single file to allow you to pass safely; however i think it is best to ride or cycle 2 abreast if you can on country roads, because that way you are more visible, especially on bends. the new rules say that riders ( of horses) should not ride 2 abreast, but it was obviously thought up by someone who doesnt have a clue; once you are tucked into the edge of the road, on a bend, a car driver has very little time to see you and react. however i do think that the riders and cyclists should then go single file until in a place where it is safe to pass. and i particularily dislike to be on the roads at the same time as riders ( or people generally) who have dogs loose, running alongside. organic, if and when you start to ride, i am sure you will enjoy it, and enjoy an empathy with horses, and you are right about riders who tense up transmitting the vibes through the reins and the seat, it does happen, but the scenario which i was talking about is more about preventative safety precautions. ( defensive riding/ driving as i was taught)

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Excellent Organic, thank you

There are very few cyclists who use it and I guess it's easy to see why!

Aye - I think I'd probably try to find a different route myself... but it'd depend where I was coming from, going to and how much I felt like asserting my right of way on such a wide and busy road. If the traffic was at a standstill I'd use it without hesitation though... a bit of filtering and lane changing where appropriate would have me over the bridge before a couple of light-changes had passed.

[di]

Organic...in most cases,if you're sat behind a tractor the driver will have the common courtesy to wave you past when it's safe....or as Sarz said will actually pull over the first opportunity he has to do so.(around here they do anyway)
Also,I don't think I've ever seen a tractor as long as a convoy of ten or more cyclists...a couple of times I've been behind an extra long lorry type thing.There was a truck driving several yards in front of it to warn oncoming traffic and periodically it would stop to allow traffic to pass safely whilst the truck in front stopped oncoming traffic(oh,and one straddling behind to warn drivers to slow down)
It doesn't take an awful lot of common sense to work out that it's going to take a heck of a lot longer to overtake ten cyclists than it is a couple...what should a driver do...suddenly pull in and knock the middle ones off?
When we were out last year we were the eighth car following a convoy of cyclists...I've not got a clue how many were behind us...did the cyclists stop or at least slow down a little...pfft they did
I'm going to stop there as in my initial post I clearly stated that I have no problem with any road users,just so long as they're not making the roads dangerous for others...I feel you're attempting to lump me into your little category of 'one of those car drivers' that has no consideration for cyclists...it's not so cut and dry.
Sun's shining and the kiddies are finally out of their PJs...gonna go fora stroll to the lottie and enjoy it.

[piskieinboots]

... the Highways act which states that cyclists should: never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends.

Hum, the two holding me and several other cars up around a winding narrow road clearly hadn't sat the Highway Code test!

Never seen a cycle rally doing the same thing though...

Nope, can't say's I have

[lindyloo]

back to horses again- sorry! the thing is that the highway code, and even driving tuition, doesnt cover the subject with any depth,. so a lot of people dont know how to safely pass a horse. they often either pass wide, or pass slow, but not both at once, as they should do , and they come up far too close behind, and then dart out sideways, they hover revving there engine. they try to squuze pass when the road or lane is too narrow, and what they often dont understand is that a horse can also react to something on the other side of the hedge, a noise, or something that a nonhorsey person doesnt notice. so it is up to the rider to take as much precaution as possible to keep everyone safe.

back to cyclists, as you know , i dont think they are all bad, but to illistrate ( my spelling is alwful!) why bikes are scary to them, it is the silent suddeness of them, and then a whir, when passing. for instance last summer i was longreining a youngster when 3 oncoming cyclists appeared suddenly over the brow of a hill, ranged across the road. baby tired to half-rear and spin in the road ( a quiet, straight, country road on a sunday afternoon) i had chosen a quiet time, i had someone walking at his head, and he is normally fantastic, passing tractors and combines without a blink - we pull over to the verge and reassure him while they pass.

but it was the unexpected suddeness which freaked him out with the cyclists- they just appeared without warning, and his instnict was to get the heck out of there pronto- it could have been 3 pony eating lions, for all he knew. in actual fact the cyclists were absolutely brilliant; they all dismounted and stood still, and we calmed pony down and reassured him as they all went past slowly, and spoke to us as they passed. i think this illistrates why i wish cyclists were more aware of how scary bikes are. also, to the person who said that thier friend used to go out on a bike with a horse, yes, people often do; it is different because horses know that bike and person, they EXPECT it to be there with them-- it is not the bike itself- it is the unexpectedness of something which startles them, which is why a horse should be passed wide and slow and with your foot hovering above the brake pedal, so that you can stop suddenly if you have to.

now i know there will be people who say that horses therefore shouldnt be on the road if they are unpredictable, and some horses are definately not safe on the road, but most horses are; it is only the possibility of an external that might cause a problem. most riders have a strong sense or survival, and would not ride an unsafe horse, but as someone else said, a horse is a living thinking feeling being, not a machine.

to anyone who wonders why i had a youngster on the road; it is because he has to get used to traffic somewhere; therefore i choose quiet times, quiet routes, and a person to assist, we all wear bright yellow, and take every precaution to keep everyone safe, and not cause a nuisance.

sadly, the bridle paths get less and less, often ending on junctions with busy roads, and they have been opened up to allow cyclists, off road vehichles , dirt bikes,etc. onto them, resulting in us having to go on the roads, whether we like it or not. strangely, if you drive a horse and cart, you are not allowed to go on a bridlepath!!! mad, isnt it?

[lindyloo]

to two sheds; hope i spelt it right... i think the reason they are nice to horse rider/drivers , or at least to me, is that i always smile, and say thank you, i always pull over off the road to let them pass if it is safe to do so, ( a lot of horsepeople do but sadly, not all of them).. i dont know whether cyclists have the same interaction, as they often appear to be in thier own world, or wouldnt, or couldnt safely , acknowledge or thank every driver on the road, as i do.

and as they are profressional drivers, thier livlihood depends on safe driving, i think they know the risks of what can go wrong. a half a ton of horse through a windscreen is not a nice thought or a pleasant experience. and it is different on a country road- maybe they like to get out in the clean air?

have to tell you that one lorry driver actually waited patiently while we unharnessed one pony in training once! he was absolutely fantastic, and seemed very interested in what we were doing. he deserved a medal as it took about ten minutes to disengage!

also, horses are easier to see, than cyclists, and not apt to be in built up areas if they can avoid it, so there is more time for interaction, and also, i like to think that as horses were the original traffic on the road, and would be used by hauliers and carriers, as well as hauling the materials to make the roads, maybe there is a respect and nostalgia thing going on as well? whatever it is , i am grateful to them

[organic]

LindyLoo - that post was really informative. Thanks.
Have bridleways not always been open for cyclists? They certainly have been for the past 15 years or so, I don't know before that though as it was around then I started mountain biking. I seem to recall it being the case that bicycles aren't permitted on all bridleways but I suppose that could have changed.
I'm not convinced of how good an idea it is to have dirt bikes and 4x4s on there though.

A while back I looked into the possibility of doing some tours by bridleway (be it on a bicycle or a horse) and was absolutely astounded at how few of them are actually joined up and how many routes involved long stretches by road.


Andy&Di - I'm not trying to lump anyone into anything.
When I asked about how long people are happy to wait behind tractors vs bicycles and at what speed it was a genuine question. Many cyclists have the impression that they aren't seen as equal-rights vehicles even compared to those which travel at a similar speed.
I'm a waver-paster. When the conditions allow I'll actually pull over to the gutter to allow cars past if I know I'll be able to re-take secondary position (around 1 metre from the kerb) safely and they'll have space to pass safely.

I don't like driving full speed along country roads ("no rush" and "nicer to take in the scenery" rather than fear of the roads) so I pull aside when I'm in a car to avoid causing a hold-up for others. I'm the same on my bike. Also, I don't ride in massive groups - that doesn't appeal at all. If I did I'd be inclined to ride in smaller bunches and do what I could to ease traffic past where safe to do so. Generally speaking I'd defer to the highway code though. If it says something in there then cyclists, as well as drivers, really should be doing that. It's rare that there's any excuse for doing otherwise.

I'm not in any way condoning people riding in a pack and causing tailbacks... I just wonder why so many cyclists feel their riding slower than the speed limit is tolerated less than motor vehicles that drive at a similar speed.