van v. cyclist: driver sacked

[piskieinboots]

Whereas when motorists do stupid things, my life is in danger. That's why I get a little bit upset and speak from the heart.

Likewise

[Two_Sheds]

but Piskie, annoying as those 2 cyclists were to you, they didn't endanger your life. Like with any obstacle, whether it be horse, caravan or tractor, you just have to wait until there is room to safely overtake.

[piskieinboots]

but Piskie, annoying as those 2 cyclists were to you, they didn't endanger your life.

Hum, not sure about that - because there was a line of cars stacking up behind me, imagine if one had a PMT female on board

I do take your point about having patience and tractors etc, but my point was they could have moved into single file but chose not to.

[OverWyreGrower]

I don't like rude cyclists, however, I don't like rude drivers either!!

As a dog walker, I often walk my dogs off lead (and they are large dogs). However, if a cyclist alerts me to their presence (bell, horn, voice) rather than zooming up behind me and the dogs, then kicking out at the dogs who are in their way; I'll gladly call the dogs over and hold them whilst the cyclist goes past. Actually, this happens on a footpath that is clearly marked "No Cycling" every 100 yards or so....

I'll gladly call my dogs over and wait for joggers, families, other dog walkers etc, but I haven't got 360 vision, and since I'm usually meandering along watching what my dogs are doing, I often don't realise people are RIGHT behind me until they verbally abuse me or my dogs, or kick them out of the way...

[Two_Sheds]

Good to see that a company will stand up for what is right.

You're the only one to say that Incy.
Jeremy Vine had 2 callers (there was no discussion as such) who said "all cyclists are a menace" and that they backed the van driver. Even though what he did was clearly wrong, dangerous and totally unacceptable: they automatically & vehemently blame the cyclist

Motorists aren't all bad, and 'we' are often the ones vilified.

Possibly because motorists kill and injure cyclists, not the other way round.

- red-light jumping

You see drivers doing it all the time. But we only get upset at cyclists who do it (who frankly must be suicidal)

I have been hit by a cyclist TS, on a pedestrian crossing

... and I've been hit by two pedestrians, on separate occasions in Norwich, who stepped suddenly into the road without looking. I nearly broke my hand in one, and my front wheel was bent by the other. Neither apologised to me, and the police who happened to be on the scene at one collision, just said to me 'were you wearing a helmet?' Very helpful.

[organic]

Thanks for posting this TS. I saw it and tuned in about a minute before the start of the interview.

Some interesting comments in here.

Firstly I'd like to back up what TS said about most "stupid" cycling people talk about is actually the right way to ride. In particular the bits about riding in the "secondary position" about 1 metre from the kerb (and from parked cars to avoid picking up a door-prize*) which are all too often seen as lane hogging.

One that TS didn't mention is "taking the lane" or "riding in primary position". In some situations is it both correct and safer to ride right down the middle of a lane (primary position) precisely to prevent cars** overtaking when it would be unsafe to do so. For example, if there is an island in the middle of a narrow road there's not usually enough room for a car to pass safely so the cyclist should move to the primary position, preventing any attempt to pass until the "pinch point" has passed when they move back to the secondary road position. The same approach holds true when passing a line of parked cars that don't leave enough room between them and oncoming traffic for a car to overtake a bike safely.


Some cyclists run red lights. Some cyclists ride from the pavement onto the road without looking. Some cyclists use the pavement to avoid red lights. The vast, vast majority do not.

Alison said something about the consequences of cyclists breaking the law and drivers. I agree that it's no excuse one way or the other, but to further that point: Drivers of any vehicle (and this includes cycles) need to realise the responsibility they have to other road users and to pedestrians. Cyclists move almost silently and so have a responsibility to look out for pedestrians wandering along in a world of their own. Car drivers are in a vehicle that typically weighs in over a ton and in an impact with a pedestrian, cyclist or motorcyclist invariably come off unharmed while the fatality rates of the other party are alarming. As the size and speed of the vehicle increases, the person in charge of it has a greater and greater responsibility to look out for other road users and act appropriately.
Yes, if a pedestrian, cyclist, motorcyclist or someone else does something stupid it may be "their fault" - but it is the responsibility of all road users to anticipate the actions of others - and that responsibility increases with the danger the vehicle presents to others.

This is where the conflict arises. Cyclists are often seen as aggressive because of the way they shout and gesture at drivers... and I can fully understand why it might seem like that - but you have to keep in mind that a lot of those aggressive cyclists are acting like that because they've just been cut up or almost hit. I don't think there's even a tiny bit of coincidence when I say I can't remember the last time I encountered an aggressive cyclist when driving a car. I leave cyclists plenty of room and am happy to hang back and wait for a safe opportunity to pass, just like we do with horses, tractors and other slow moving road users. If a driver encounters a large number of aggressive cyclists, there's a fair chance they need to adjust their driving to be more courteous and more in line with the highway code.


So - the interview.
"The cyclist could have been further to the left." (from one of the company owners)
"Cyclists should be banned from the roads and so their opinions are void."
"Cyclists are a nightmare and I support the van driver."

I won't even credit the last 2 with a response beyond "typical mindless responses", but the first is interesting - and I seriously wonder how much consideration he's made for the safe and proper way to cycle. From all I've been able to read so far (the video would be most interesting to see and I'd love to see it released) the cyclist was right to be in the position he was in and I really can't help wondering if he was in secondary position in the lane but "hogging" it as described by TS above. I believe he also cycles to work, but even a lot of cyclists ride too close to the kerb to be safe.

Whatever though, it's good to see at least some action being taken, even if it is only internal to the company. I still think traffic law enforcement tends to miserably fail cyclists who are victims of bad drivers - whether deliberate or of the SMIDSY*** variety. But then, most of the resources seem to be directed at speed cameras and enforcing tax and insurance rules.


In closing a bit of advice I'd like to see everyone follow... it would transform the safety of our roads far more than just about any other measure I can think of (well, short of everyone riding bicycles but that aside).
When you're driving, don't look for cars, busses, trucks or anything else. Look for cyclists.
If you're looking for a cyclist there's no chance you'll miss motorbikes, cars, vans, busses or trucks... but if you're looking for the above, it's only a matter of time until you fail to spot a cyclist and that won't end well.
Actively looking for cyclists and showing proper consideration for other road users whatever their or your means of transportation would make a massive difference to congestion, safety and stress levels on the road.

* door prize
** "cars" could equally be vans, busses and so on
*** Sorry Mate I Didn't See You

[piskieinboots]

..Look for cyclists.
If you're looking for a cyclist there's no chance you'll miss motorbikes

Yep

............

[organic]

Oh and you just hit the nail on the head with the reason I tend to wear a helmet even though I don't like the things and don't actually think it will do anything worthwhile if I'm hit by a car.

I don't ever want there to be a situation where I'm hit, injured or killed by a car, van or bus and some scumbag defence lawyer, without any basis in the physics involved, gets to say "Yes my client ran over the victim's head - but the victim wasn't wearing a helmet."
(or slightly less comically - "Yes my client crushed your client's bike, ran over his leg, shattered his pelvis and fractured his wrist, but your client wasn't wearing a helmet. My client can hardly be blamed for someone else failing to wear safety gear.")

It reminds me of a sticker I saw once... "Bicycle helmets are for lawyers."

I'm not even slightly interested in the pro/con of helmets debate beyond the negative impact of encouraging or mandating their use - but that explains perfectly my attitude.

[aud]

who ever the driver it is, horse rider cyclist and car driver, anyone who doesnt think about others on the road need to be banned from the road lol. Though i have to admit that i have had bad experineces with more cyclists and horse riders than i have with cars and i dont even drive i walk (when i can) and i have thrown myself in ditches for more cyclists than car owners. once there was a cyclist who pulled out of a road without looking at what was coming and my friend have to slam on the breaks so not to hit him then he flipped us a finger. It wasnt even his right of way. there are two types of cyclists in my world, the leisure ones who tend to have a basket. and the tight clothes who wear what looks like a commode on their head. the ones who wear tight clothes tend to be the rudest ones. cycling down the middle of a country road at full pelt, isnt the best idea as you are bound to collide with a tractor, which is what happened to one poor chap, and it top it off he still hasnt learnt from it. He mounts pavements when he cant get down the road, plain rude if you ask me.
i mean ok so people in cars kill more cyclists, but then they would because a car is pretty hefty. But i do wonder how many cyclists are killed because they are careless. like pedestrains. a kid walked out in the road a few weeks ago playing around on her mobile phone, we all shouted at her, didnt take a blind bit of notice, if she had done that on a bend, she would have been badly hurt or killed. Not only would the car owner probally have got the blame, but the car owner would have had to live with it.
oh i have to add i dont live in the town, so we dont have lit areas and the roads are very bendy. The car drivers dont have any choice but to drive slowely. you never know whats around the corner.

[Two_Sheds]

I still think traffic law enforcement tends to miserably fail cyclists who are victims of bad drivers ...most of the resources seem to be directed at speed cameras

The police simply do not back up the cyclist. They just don't.

1) I had a serious accident in Norwich on a roundabout. The driver who hit me said I swerved in front of him. I didn't. He was behind me for about a third of the way around a large roundabout and I could sense that he was too close for comfort, but I had nowhere to go, I was trapped next to the island. He drove right into/over me. The police were actually in a car on another exit of the roundabout, but claimed to have seen nothing. Despite my protesting what happened, they ignored me. No action was taken against the driver.

2) same roundabout I'm waiting to enter the roundabout, there's a car behind me. We're stationary. Then he just drives into me. Totally trigger happy - he saw a gap in the traffic and floored it, forgetting that I was in front of him on a bike. The police took no action, but I claimed for a new bike on his insurance.

3) Pedestrian steps suddenly into the road without looking: I hit him but I come off worse, having been thrown through the air - I nearly broke my hand, he was unhurt. The police were in a shop and came out when they heard the noise: but instead of telling the idiot bloke off, they gave me a lecture about not wearing a helmet It was my hand that got hurt, not my head.

4) My latest crash, last summer, which you all read about when it happened. Driver failed to give way to me when he turned right: he drove right into me, I went through the air again. The policeman took a statement from me, but it was so half-hearted that he wrote down the wrong information. When I corrected him, he got a bit narky. When I saw that the driver was going to get off with a SIDSY, I said how could he not see me when I was directly in front of him? Policeman said "maybe he had a blind spot, these new cars have lots of blind spots". Unbelievable. No action taken against driver, but he admitted liability when I sued him and he settled out of court.

5) Mr TS was knocked off by a driver who opened his car door suddenly without looking. Driver says SIDSY. Bike is knackered, Mr TS has huge bruises on his arms, and a permanent pain in his elbow: he spent �200 on physio, but he still can't straighten it fully. He wanted to sue the driver, but the police refused to release his details. When we persisted, we got various excuses as to why nothing was happening: 'that constable is off duty/on holiday' etc. Then we were told they wouldn't take any action as the driver wasn't from this area ! We never were given the driver's details so we could claim for the damage.

6) I was in a cycle lane, coming up to red lights: lots of traffic on the road next to me, waiting. I slowed right down so I didn't have to stop (slow bikes are dangerous bikes; always avoid stopping if you can). As it happened, I crossed just as the lights were still on red, not quite on amber - I just misjudged my speed by one second.
There were no pedestrians crossing, nobody was in danger.
However the 4x4 driver at the front of the traffic queue was just waiting for a cyclist to make a misdemeanour: he swerved his vehicle into me as I was riding off: he then chased me down the road screaming abuse from his cab as I tried to get away from him. Completely mental, loony stuff. I took his reg plate and went to the police station, shaking like a leaf. The police were "unable to do anything, it's your word against his".

7) approaching a small roundabout in Lowestoft: I'm riding in the right lane, correctly, to take the roundabout's 3rd exit. A small souped up Saxo screams up behind me, honking, then overtakes me but realises she isn't going to make it, due to a big roundabout being in the way ... so forces me off my bike by driving into me. I jumped rather than get hurt. She just drives off - I give her car reg. number to the police station. Again: "unable to do anything, it's your word against hers".

This is just wrong. The police are quick enough to do you for speeding, but won't do you if you hit a cyclist. It's just wrong. Am I ranting?

[SueA]

I'm going to get splinters in my bum on this one too but I can honestly say I can see all sides of the argument & agree with Bob & the others who have said there are good/bad/rude/considerate drivers, cyclists, pedestrians, bikers etc.
Around here we have some very good cycle paths, some of which are shared pedestrian ones & I always walk along the side clearly marked for pedestrians & get furious when I see people ambling along the cycle part. Also we have a very good cycle path along the bypass road marked as shared but rarely used by pedestrians as it's a bit isolated, you see many cyclists totally ignoring this lane & riding along in the road in heavy traffic. I've seen cars turning left & knocking cyclists off who they haven't seen riding along side them (a friend of mine did this once on her way home from work in her car after a flustered day). I've seen an elderly pedestrian walk out across a side road without looking & nearly get knocked down by a car whose driver got out & screamed abuse at him & then drove off in his car whilst using a handheld mobile. The other day driving over a toll bridge we were held up by a cyclist who was struggling in the middle of the road to ride up the 'hill' of the bridge & holding up a long line of traffic, if I was struggling so much I would have got off & walked to the top. I've been ridden towards on pavements on our estate by cyclists of all ages, motorists have driven straight over crossings on amber/red lights I've been waiting at & if I'd have stepped out I would have been knocked over. I've seen a motorcyclist drive up our street straight into the back of a parked car across the road from us (no idea why except it's on a slight hill & bend?!)
I just generally walk everywhere I can & keep an eye open for all the inconsiderate people out there!

[Two_Sheds]

"Bicycle helmets are for lawyers."

Ain't that the truth.

there are two types of cyclists in my world, the leisure ones who tend to have a basket. and the tight clothes who wear what looks like a commode on their head.

So you don't see them as people then? Just ridiculous figures of fun?

I have a basket, panniers, cycle clips, lycra and a commode/helmet, so ner

Sometimes I wear a skirt and ride my granny bike, but if I'm riding a distance I wear the lycra and the padded shorts and ride my touring bike (most ppl think it's a racer, it's not).

[organic]

once there was a cyclist who pulled out of a road without looking at what was coming and my friend have to slam on the breaks so not to hit him then he flipped us a finger.

Grade A idiot. (on the bike, I mean. )

i mean ok so people in cars kill more cyclists, but then they would because a car is pretty hefty.

Exactly why it's so incredibly important for car drivers to drive responsibly.

But i do wonder how many cyclists are killed because they are careless.

Quite a few, that's for sure.

However, the one relevant study I can find without searching for ages suggests that most cyclist fatalities are down to a "broadside" impact. That's either a car hitting a bike (car bumper to cyclist's side) or a bike hitting a car (front wheel to side of car). Some of those are indeed down to the cyclist's error but the majority are the driver failing to stop at red lights, stop and give way lines and many involve the driver driving at a cyclist who is right in front of them.

I'm not going to argue that cyclists are never at fault, that clearly isn't the case, but the studies I've seen do seem to suggest cyclist fatalities and injuries tend to be the fault of the car driver... and the studies often quote far lower accident numbers than are actually happening as so many go unreported (which is no wonder seeing how infrequently charges are brought)... though it would be reasonable to expect the balance of blame would be unchanged were they reported.

Oh i have to add i dont live in the town, so we dont have lit areas and the roads are very bendy. The car drivers dont have any choice but to drive slowely. you never know whats around the corner.

Sounds great - car drivers driving responsibly because they know things can happen and they have a responsibility to react safely. (Though I suspect most drive carefully out of self preservation "I don't want to hit a tractor" than out of consideration for others "there might be a cyclist or horse around that bend.")

[bobleponge]

You see drivers doing it all the time. But we only get upset at cyclists who do it (who frankly must be suicidal)

I'm now going to disagree properly TS.

You simply DONT see drivers doing it all the time, that just is not true.
More and more traffic lights these days have cameras on, which cyclists still ignore.
The arse of a cyclist just isnt the same as the registration number of a car. Whilst I've woken up to several that have been wider, they dont have numbers on that the police just type into a computer and send a fine.

Cyclists do jump red lights. I would suggest that anyone who lives in a built up area will see cyclists jumping red lights. Often.


And yes you are ranting, but I probably am now too.

[Two_Sheds]

You simply DONT see drivers doing it all the time, that just is not true.

Well it is true round here, and in lots of other places.
Drivers see an amber light changing, and speed up to beat the lights.
Try visiting Lowestoft, where the new bypass has about 26 sets of traffic lights in 3 miles. Drivers are fed up with waiting, so they jump the lights. All the time. I can take video footage if you like. This report mentions thousands of drivers fined for jumping red lights.

Bob, your beliefs are entrenched and won't change. Neither will mine. We'll leave it at that.