CPR- a serious thread

[dandy]

When I did my First Aid at Work refresher course in June this year the trainer did say that the thinking is now that the oxygen in the blood is sufficient to kep the brain ticking over. Compressions are necessary if the heart has stopped to keep the blood circulating so that the oxygen is getting to the vital organs.

[trebellangeminired]

Over the years I've done various courses and thankfully have never been called upon to do anything major. In fact, I worked at a school where taking the St. Johns Ambulance Basic First Aid Certificate was part of life studies for staff and students. This was a smart move really as it meant all staff and students above year 8 had formal training in first aid. However, my daughter, who was 12 at the time, was coming home from her school on the bus when the girl sitting next to her started choking after the top off her sports bottle came off and lodged in her throat. She had the presence of mind to get the girl on her feet, loosen her tie and perform the heinlich manouvre on her which dislodged the top from her throat, all before the bus stopped and while everyone else was either screaming or panicking or both. Naturally, we were very proud of her but puzzled as to our knowledge she had never been taught any first aid. When we asked her how she knew what to do, her reply was "I saw it on Discovery Kids". Despite a pleading letter and complaints, it still hasn't been reinstated as part of the Sky package.

[lumpyjumper]

I was taught, Nelly the Elephant for the speed of compressions too, the guy teaching who is a first responder, said the compressions kept the heart full of blood so that a defribillator could work, apparently without blood in the heart there is nothing to re-start. He also said how critical it was not to stop the compressions until the first responder/paramedic says he is ready to take over, as it takes time to charge the defibrellator and get all the necessary equipment ready. He said the number of times people see him arrive and suddenly stop!!

[jackie j]

Ten years ago whilst out shopping in Exeter my mother in law didnt feel very well and wanted to get out of the shop she was in, a female worker at the store saw what was happening and persuaded her to sit down and she called an ambulance, they gave mil something ( cant remember what ) and it saved her life. She was having a major heart attack, had she been at home she probably would have gone to bed and if she had she would most definitly died.
So whoever it was in the large department store if it wasnt for your actions thank you she would not have seen my daughter grow into a twelve year old nor see her two great grandaughters.

[SlugLobber]

Aw, what a lovely story, Jackie!

I've been a qualified First Aider since the age of 7 (am now 31) and it changes every time I refresh!

As others have said, it's now 30 compressions to 2 breaths, due to the importance of blood circulating oxygen. We were also taught to do compressions even if there is a pulse. In fact, we were told that in an unknown situation, we shouldn't even check for a pulse, as research shows that you cannot do any harm compressing a working heart.

[Headfry]

I think first aid should be taught in schools, right form the very start so that it becomes second nature!
What is it with the world today...

[batpixie]

I have to do a yearly CPR update for my job (within the NHS). When I did it last year, it was 30 compressions to 2 breaths. This year (in July) it was compressions only for up to 5 minutes (after checking that the airway is clear) and then you can choose whether or not to give breaths. The reason they gave for only doing compressions was that there is enough oxygen in the blood stream and a small amount will be taken into the lungs because of the compressions. The also emphasised that it is your choice whether or not to give mouth to mouth after 5 mins. Some people may be reluctant to do it because of the risk of infection to themselves, and also if the patient has been sick it may put people off. A few days after the course I was on a train to Edinburgh to visit my parents and a passenger brought the guards attention to a man who wouldn't wake up. There was a bit of confusion as no-one knew him or how long he had been collapsed (it was a Friday evening commuter train, lots of people nod off after a long week at work), but it turned out that he had stopped breathing and his heart had stopped. One of the other passengers said that she thought she could feel a pulse and the guard phoned 999 and got advice from them to start cpr (compressions only). The ambulance crew arrived within a couple of minutes of us arriving at the next station and they immediately intubated him and continued CPR. I did feel that I should/could have done something, but because of the confusion and nobody actually asking for help I did not realise what was happening until the guard started CPR. Hopefully he was OK.

[batpixie]

Sorry, I meant to say that I think first aid should be made compulsory in all schools. It would mean that a lot of people will know about it and hopefully be able to use it.

[Glenn Uk]

I was taught cpr when in the fire service, I served for 18 years and depsite attending many rtas, fires etc never had to adminster cpr.

About 18 months ago when going to the post office saw two woman givng cpr to a copllapsed man by the side of the road and offered help.

Initially there were the three of us giving cpr, i was doing the compressions and the two woman took turns doing mouth to mouth, dont ask me why it was that way round it just happend.

Then two off duty paramedics turned up and in total i reckon we were working on the old boy for around 20 - 30 minuts before the ambulance and doctor turned up.

Its tough, the man in question repeatedly started and then stopped breathing, but despite that and the fact that he never made it, i would still try again if in the same situation.

I keep thinking i should do a refresher, but never seem to have the time, being pragmatic i dont supose it mattered whether it was 5 and 1 with more than one person (i bet thats changed too) or whether it had been 30 ad one for a single.

Despite being sad then (and now) that it wasnt succesful it was good to see the many people trying to save the old mans life.

Glenn

[kirsty b]

I work within the NHS and we all have a mandatory update every year. Although I've never had to use it in 4 years.

[rogesse]

A St Johns Ambulance course taken nearly 30yrs ago whilst in the guides saved my son's life 3yrs ago. He had his first epileptic seizure in his sleep and vomited at the same time.
Despite clearing the vomit from his throat he refused to breath but I remembered 'Derek the dummy' and had him breathing but unconcious by the time the paramedic, then ambulance arrived. Thankfully he is more than fine now and fit free.

It should definately be taught in schools.

[nick the grief]

The big problem is the fear of being sued as happened in america a few years ago. Some one administered 1st aid, saved the guys life but he ended up handicapped because of loss of oxygen in the time it took for the 1st aider to get to him so rather than being gratefull for saving someones life the family sued the 1st aider - I won't tell you my thoughts but slug pellets comes to mind.

Because of this non of the 1st aiders at work are allowed to administer cpr, all they can do is put you in a recovery position and wait for the paramedics (or give you a plaster - but they can't put it on in case of aids!!) seems a complete waste of training to me the sooner this "Someone must be to blame"culture is kicked into touch the better

[Glenn Uk]

The big problem is the fear of being sued as happened in america a few years ago. Some one administered 1st aid, saved the guys life but he ended up handicapped because of loss of oxygen in the time it took for the 1st aider to get to him so rather than being gratefull for saving someones life the family sued the 1st aider - I won't tell you my thoughts but slug pellets comes to mind.

Because of this non of the 1st aiders at work are allowed to administer cpr, all they can do is put you in a recovery position and wait for the paramedics (or give you a plaster - but they can't put it on in case of aids!!) seems a complete waste of training to me the sooner this "Someone must be to blame"culture is kicked into touch the better

Nick

All i can say is that the primary issue is not being sued but a culture where some people and organisations fail to understand what health and safety legislation is about. The H&SAW Act ralrey prevents anyone doing anything, it places the onuse for malking sure a risk assessment is carried out on the responsible person or persons. If the risks not being about whether one might be sued but rather about the potential for a risk being realised and the costs of mitigating for that risk.

With regards to being sued, without knowing all the facts about the case in point, its impossible to comment, however in the UK i do not believe there is anything that would render a casual passer by (whether a 1st aider or not) liable in law for offering 1st aid.

It would be interesting to know if there is any case law showing that a 1st aider acting on their own volition was held liable in the uk and for what reason?

If you are a professional and fail to act professionaly or to a professional standard then there may be issues.

It is possible that if your company provides first aiders and they are stopped (by the company) from acting when they could reasonably have been expected to in relation to an incident at work, then there would in my view be no reason why a claim could not be bought against the company for preventing treatment.

Depending on the size of your com,pany and the naute of its work the company is required to prpvide 1st aiders, stopping them giving treatment is perverse and i think it would be relatively easy to show the company had failed in its duty of care to its employees if by policy it prevented them from acting reasonably. It would in effect be the same as if they had failed to porivde 1st aiders where they should reasonably have done so.

JMHO

GLenn

[HayleyB]

Sad for the old guy, at least he survived amazing he did actually, I would be happy to use CPR (I was trained with 15 compressions) and was also taught mouth to nose.

I agree it should be taught at school, I'd be happy for 11yr old DD to do it

[nick the grief]

Nick

All i can say is that the primary issue is not being sued but a culture where some people and organisations fail to understand what health and safety legislation is about. The H&SAW Act ralrey prevents anyone doing anything, it places the onuse for malking sure a risk assessment is carried out on the responsible person or persons. If the risks not being about whether one might be sued but rather about the potential for a risk being realised and the costs of mitigating for that risk.

With regards to being sued, without knowing all the facts about the case in point, its impossible to comment, however in the UK i do not believe there is anything that would render a casual passer by (whether a 1st aider or not) liable in law for offering 1st aid.

It would be interesting to know if there is any case law showing that a 1st aider acting on their own volition was held liable in the uk and for what reason?

If you are a professional and fail to act professionaly or to a professional standard then there may be issues.

It is possible that if your company provides first aiders and they are stopped (by the company) from acting when they could reasonably have been expected to in relation to an incident at work, then there would in my view be no reason why a claim could not be bought against the company for preventing treatment.

Depending on the size of your com,pany and the naute of its work the company is required to prpvide 1st aiders, stopping them giving treatment is perverse and i think it would be relatively easy to show the company had failed in its duty of care to its employees if by policy it prevented them from acting reasonably. It would in effect be the same as if they had failed to porivde 1st aiders where they should reasonably have done so.

JMHO

GLenn

I don't disagree with you Glenn on any of the points It's just the culture we are living in I'm afraid. How many times do you hear car alarms or burglar alarms going off and folks just ignore them