Dwarf fruit tree, advice and recommendations

I have the following dwarf apple trees: Katy, Falstaff, Red Windsor and Red Jonaprince. They only grow to about 6ft in height and I got about 15 kilos of fruit in total last year. More apples this year on the trees and I have had to support the branches with stakes due to the weight. They are spaced about 5ft apart. They fruited in the first year but only a few apples on each tree, then better each year. They cost £15 each four years ago.

I also have a victoria plum and conference pear that grow to 8ft heigh and again are good croppers.

Following on from the advice above, and echoing our resident gurus teachings here - if your soil is very good then even on a dwarf rootstock your tree may grow taller than what's written in black and white. If your soil is poor, and you plant a monster of a tree, it may only grow small..

A plum/pear on a pixy rootstock will grow to ~3m tall, so just over your 8'. That said, with proper pruning you'd be able to keep any tree under control if done correctly.

Are there other fruit trees nearby to you? I have a red windsor too, on an extremely dwarfing rootstock - M27. That's probably about 6' now, and that's all it'll grow. The problem with such dwarfing trees is that they're suspectible to damage/disease more so than a vigorous tree would be. They also will need watering..

Next up in the line of apples would be something on an M9 roostock, but check these links 1out for further information on rootstocks: Apples, Plums

Also, Apple wise, you can't go grow having a browse through this thread by FB. - he's extremely knowledgable about fruit trees, in particular apples: http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gra...ted_42151.html

Dr Pips

I can see several potential problems with your requirements.

Firstly, the old tree may have taken much of the nutrients from the soil, making the soil much poorer (or perhaps deficient in certain important nutrients). Additionally, those old roots will have some diseases by now and the attacks of those diseases will slow the progress of any newly-planted trees. It is commonly referred to as "replant disease", where young trees grow much less than expected when planted on the site of an old tree.

Additionally, fruit tree size is a matter of good pruning. A properly pruned and maintained tree will reward you with much higher amounts of higher-quality fruit than a tree which is just left to become long, straggly and diseased.

I would always recommend going for a rootstock which is slightly stronger than you think you need. It is easy to keep a slightly over-vigorous tree under control with July pruning, but it is very difficult to presuade a stunted tree to grow and fruit.

Also, contrary to what "the books" say: the final tree size and growth rate are dramatically affected by the variety grafted onto your rootstock of choice. Bramley is so strong that it can override dwarfing rootstock, while certain other varieties will "runt out" on dwarf roots.
Have a fiddle with this tree size estimator: > Link <

The size guides given tend to mean the size at an age of about ten years, although dwarfing rootstocks may stop growing earlier, while vigorous rootstocks continue growing for most of their life.
Personally, I think that you should look at rootstocks M26 and MM106, assuming that your soil is average or better.

The quicker you start a variety fruiting, the sooner its growth rate slows down. A dwarf rootstock can take a few years to be able to support a good fruit load (in the meantime you get small fruit or the fruit drops off), while a medium or strong rootstock establishes within a matter of months and can bear crops as soon as planted.
Stronger rootstocks will also tolerate drought, disease and damage. Dwarfs take years to recover unless the soil is excellent. Most dwarfs are grown in heavily-fed and watered soils of good quality.

Don't rush into chosing varieties.
Definitely do not plant varieties which are found in your local supermarket because they tend to suffer badly from disease unless regularly sprayed.
Wrex's suggestions are above-average varieties (there are many other good varieties too, depending on what type of fruit you want), but I find that the more common a particular variety, the more likelihood of problems with pests and diseases. Being too widely grown has caused many good varieties to lose their disease resistance, as the diseases adapt and spread. Modern varieties are bred for commercial-grade fruit, with little attention paid to pest/disease resistance.
The really ancient varieties were grown for their excellent crops in past centuries, where they just had to be resistant to pests and diseases without any help from their owners.
Modern varieties are generally not nearly as tough as the older types, although modern varieties often give higher crops if conditions are good. In poor conditions, the modern varieties often struggle because they all-too-easily "runt out" and become spur-bound. Such highly precocious trees are beneficial to commercial orchards who give liquid feed every day, to prevent the trees growing too quickly and not fruiting. However, take away their liquid feed and the modern varieties just can't compete with the ancient varieties.

Wow! there's a lot of information in that thread!

Ok, the soil where I want the tree to go is not good, very heavy clay soil. It is in a very sheltered location though, and there is an apple tree next door, although I have no idea what type it is! Also I live in Lincoln, so Eastern England, possibly susceptable to mildew and not particularly warm.

Not sure whether to go for an apple, something like a grenadier (M26) or reverend wilks (M7) but a little put off by the fact that neither of them keep particularly well.

Or, a greengage, Deniston's Superb (appartently a plum, but looks and tastes like a greengage)

I am also confused by the different shapes of tree!! Cordon, bush, pyramid, fan, half standard, I just want a tree!! A tree like tree, that looks like a tree, just a small one!

Thanks again,

Dom

Here's an example of an approximately ten-year-old Laxton Superb on MM106, planted about 3ft from a fence. "The books" say that it should reach about 15ft in ten years. It is actually a straggly 5ft, requires the support of some rope, and refuses to grow despite my best efforts.
Unfortunately, "the books" did not take into account the quality and depth of the soil, nor the supply of adequate water or rainfall.

I've revised my opinion of disease resistance of certain varieties since I posted the topic about particular varieties. Each growing season is different and local climate can affect performance.
Lincolnshire seems likely to be a fairly decent place to grow apples. Not too hot, not too cold, not too dry, not too wet. Soil type will be important though.
Varieties with broad-based resistance to pests/diseases would be advisable. There is no such thing as a perfect apple variety - every variety has one or more quirks which the nurseries won't tell you for fear of deterring you.
Pears can be trickier to grow organically than apples or plums.

If the soil is prone to waterlogging (especially during the growing season) you may have problems. You could plant the trees on mounds to stop them literally drowning.

The British are too dumb to stock apple varieties on the excellent M7 rootstock, so you'll be lucky to find anything on M7 unless you can import from the USA, where it is a highly-regarded rootstock, along with the MM111 (which is also fairly rare in the UK, but is my favourite rootstock for its ability to survive in almost any soil or climate).

Cordons are planted at a 45-degree angle and tied to a stake. The angle encourages earlier fruiting. The trees are encouraged to form short side branches which bear the fruits along The stem.
Cordon rootstocks are M9, M26.

Bush tends to have a trunk of about 2-3ft and a total height of 5-10ft and get wider towards the top.
Bush rootstocks are M26, MM106.

Pyramids are grown to be narrower at the top, with the idea of each side of the tree being angled straight at the sun like a solar panel, for best fruit ripening.
Pyramid rootstocks are M26, MM106.

Half standards have a trunk of 3-5ft and a total height of about 10-15ft. Basically a large bush on a longer stem.
Half standard rootstock is MM111. Although MM106 is often passed-off as a half-standard rootstock, in my opinion it is not rugged enough in most situations.

Standards have a 5-7ft trunk and they grow to the maximum size possible, often well in excess of 15ft.
Standard rootstock is M25.

Depending on soil type and the variety's natural vigour, you can upgrade or downgrade rootstock to suit your needs. I find that in my poor soil, MM111 outgrows M25 because MM111 is so tough.

...............

The smaller the rootstock, the weaker the roots. If you want a reasonable trunk, height, it also creates a lot of topweight which dwarf roots will not be able to support - they will be blown over in a wind. MM106, MM111 and M25 have excellent anchorage for free-standing trees. M26 is borderline anchorage and will gradually lean to one side if grown with lots of topweight. M9 will snap off at ground level if overloaded with topweight.

Hello again,

Thanks for your very detailed replies, I'm starting to learn a lot!

Because I have never grown fruit trees before, I am very open to advice. Given the following, what woud you advise?

-Never grown fruit trees before
-Wants something that will have some fruit next summer, and then a decent amount the year after. Willing to pay extra for an older tree.
-Wants a tree around 8' in height when finished growing.
-Cooking apple or greengage / plum.
-Very heavy clay soil, possibly lacking in nutrients from previous tree.
-With regards shape, whichever strikes the balance between ease of care, and crop.

Also, which websites would you recommend?

Thanks again,

Dom

Dr Pips

Older trees are most easily bought from garden centres or nurseries.
If you can find a 2-3 year old (about 4-5ft height/spread) for £15 or so, it is a fair price and you will be able to hand-pick the one which has the best shape. I would not recommend paying much more than £20; some garden centres really try it on with prices.
If you mail-order during the winter, you won't get such large trees, their roots will have suffered some damage from being dug-up and you will have to pay postage. Additionally, a mail-order tree will be the next in line that the nurseryman digs out, rather than hand-picked for its nice shape which is possible when buying container trees.

Take a wander round a local nursery and see what they've got. Most of it will be on rootstocks that vary between 4-12 feet. Don't avoid a rootstock because the nusery says it will get too large. Nursery size guides are often for the most vigorous varieties (e.g. Bramley or Marjories Seedling) with unpruned trees in excellent soil, with a full spray routine to prevent pests and diseases reducing their vigour. Life in the real world of spray-free growers is very different. For example: M9 or M26 is often used commercially, but the organic commercial growers often use MM106 because the tree needs more strength when only organic pesticides are used.

List the varieties available to you after a trip to a local nursery and some of us here may be able to tell you the good and bad points. Don't buy anything on your first visit.

You could "Grow", the garden centre situated at the National Fruit Collection at Brogdale, Kent. For price they will graft the variety of your choice onto the rootstock of youur choice. Of course you have to wait a year or so. Link: Grow at Brogdale - Fruit Trees, Gardening Services and Gardening Advice from the home of the National Fruit Collection at Faversham, Kent. I don't know if they offer M7 or M111.

LB

I know I'm not the OP for this thread - but as I was going to ask very similar questions to Dr Pips - I'd just like to say thanks to everyone who's posted but especially FB for such in depth but idiot-proof info !

Pixie x

My best advice would be to avoid popular varieties. Even the most disease resistant varieties eventually lose their resistance if they are too widely grown - for the simple reason that the more a tree is grown, the more pressure there is on the various diseases to adapt to attack it.
A century ago, Bramley was very disease resistant. Nowadays, any pest or disease that hasn't adapted to attack Bramley is missing a big opportunity. For that reason, Bramley's disease resistance is gradually declining.
If you intend to grow an apple, choose a rare variety that hasn't, isn't and won't be widely grown. Sure, it'll have an "issue" as to why it was never a popular commercial variety, but it s also much less likely to be overrun with pests and diseases.

I should also add that even the Egremont Russet - which has been widely promoted as highly resistant to pests and diseases - appears to have had some major failures of its resistance in the last few years.
My E.R. have been troubled with canker, while a friends E.R. in a wetter climate is now losing leaves and fruits to scab on a regular basis.
Given E.R.s popularity (probably in the top ten garden apples in the UK), the failure of its disease resistance was only a matter of time - and that time may now be fast approaching.

I will echo that sentiment. It really is great being able to read the thoughts of someone who knows what they are on about. I have a couple of apple trees on my allotment, bought from Lidl for about a fiver each so I don't have an orchard but as a novice I have an interest (and a lack of knowledge).