Redlove Apples "Era"

[Garden_Chris]

Hi all,

I'm seriously contemplating buying one of theseapple trees, they seem fantastic - highly ornamental and tasty fruits.

I was wondering, however, before I purchased one, if people have or had, any experience with this variety, any opinions or advice?

Thanks.

[veggiechicken]

I'd like to know more about these Redlove apples too. Specifically, what is the flavour and consistency of the apple? Has anyone eaten one??

[Garden_Chris]

Sadly no, but I've ordered one. 14 - 28 days until I get it. Then, wait for next year and hope I see some buds, then hope they get pollinated.

[veggiechicken]

I'll ask you again this time next year then!! Whatever, it will make an attractive tree.

[Garden_Chris]

Haha, sadly so. I believe it comes as a two year old tree in a five litre pot. Just got my e-mail telling me it'll take up to 28 days, I guess I've got about a week until I should dig the hole it's going into and ensure the surrounding area is in peak condition.

I'll make sure to update on its progress (heres hoping it survives the winter and comes out of dormancy)

[veggiechicken]

I'll save my crumble recipe for another year.

[digon]

Mines been in the ground nearly a year now, but as you would expect no fruit to report on yet. It was only an 800mm high stick when first planted but now it's grown well and is bush shaped and about 1.4m high.
What is unusual about this variety is the leaves are a dark maroon colour which on mine stands out against the green leaves of the other varieties I grafted onto it in the spring.

[chris]

OT: Did any of those discovery (or seedling of) take, digon?

Back on topic.. what rootstock does it come on? I can't see any info there about it.

[Garden_Chris]

M9 Rootstock.

[FB.]

My money says that they won't stand up well to diseases as we're being led to believe. Scab resistance may be useful, but there is no mention of resistance to other diseases such as canker or mildew.
I have heard grumbles about the red types being rather prone to canker.

I also consider that M9 rootstock - when grafted with all but the most vigorous varieties - is far too weak and demanding for most gardens; it needs deep, fertile, moisture-retentive soil; lots of feeding and regular watering. Even on good soil, M9's tendency to try to fruit very early in life often results in "runt-out" and inability of the roots to produce good sized fruit.
Its brittle roots mean than in many situations it will need permanent staking (or avoidance of being top-heavy) to avoid leaning, being uprooted in windy conditions or with a heavy fruit load.

In my mind, dwarfing rootstocks such as M27 or M9 are pets, not servants.
Strong rootstocks such as MM111 or M25 are servants, not pets. With sensible choice of variety, it is perfectly possible to keep vigorous-rootstocked trees at a manageable size and they can be just as early-cropping and more productive than dwarfs.
Most of the books are written by "virtual" (keyboard) gardeners, or by those who simply copy what someone else said.

[digon]

OT: Did any of those discovery (or seedling of) take, digon?

I think at least a couple have taken but I haven't taken the tape off yet. I grafted about 12 buds from the scion you sent so some should have taken.

FB, from what I read before I bought mine, M9/ Paradise is said to be a favourite of commercial growers, especially abroad, due to it's strong growth albeit restricted final size and high fruit yield to tree size ratio. I didn't think it was in the same league as M27
Mine has caught up with the M26 planted along side it even though the M26 looked a year older when they where both planted.

[Garden_Chris]

My money says that they won't stand up well to diseases as we're being led to believe. Scab resistance may be useful, but there is no mention of resistance to other diseases such as canker or mildew.
I have heard grumbles about the red types being rather prone to canker.

I also consider that M9 rootstock - when grafted with all but the most vigorous varieties - is far too weak and demanding for most gardens; it needs deep, fertile, moisture-retentive soil; lots of feeding and regular watering. Even on good soil, M9's tendency to try to fruit very early in life often results in "runt-out" and inability of the roots to produce good sized fruit.
Its brittle roots mean than in many situations it will need permanent staking (or avoidance of being top-heavy) to avoid leaning, being uprooted in windy conditions or with a heavy fruit load.

In my mind, dwarfing rootstocks such as M27 or M9 are pets, not servants.
Strong rootstocks such as MM111 or M25 are servants, not pets. With sensible choice of variety, it is perfectly possible to keep vigorous-rootstocked trees at a manageable size and they can be just as early-cropping and more productive than dwarfs.
Most of the books are written by "virtual" (keyboard) gardeners, or by those who simply copy what someone else said.

Hi FB, I was hoping you'd show up!
I've got a few questions:

My garden is roughly 10/13mx10/13m and hardly ever experiences wind due to already established trees around the borders and strong walls. I live in a residential area, and most wind is felt well above the height of 3/4m.

I was going to plant this apple tree in the middle of the S/E facing fence, roughly 3m long. The idea then, was to grow the apple tree, rather like a grapevine - in a cordon fashion with two arms going either way, each 1.5m long. Like the image below:



Is that possible with apple trees?
Would the tree need to be staked? (The branches will obviously be attached to the fence)

For you, what size hole would be preferable for the tree to flourish? I've got a semi-circle with a radius of over 2m to work with, so I have plenty of room to work in and around, including depths to ~1.5m. Should I dig to a certain depth, line with well rotted manure, then work back up with compost? (I've bought 2x75 litre bags for the job and have another 50 Litre bag lying around too.

And finally (sorry about all these questions) is there any particular feed you would advocate for this rootstock?

I apologise for the mad rush of questions, but I've read around on the internet and there isn't a consistent answer. I'm aware M9 can be a little tricky to live with, but I'm after the perfect conditions for it to excel in and I'm unsure as to the depths and quantities needed to ensue maximum chance of it flourishing.

I am also tempted, to purchase some M25 Rootstock in the future and graft on a scion from this tree if it does what I'm intending it to do (although, without the cordon system for it's arms).

Sorry for the long post!

[FB.]

I was going to plant this apple tree in the middle of the S/E facing fence, roughly 3m long. The idea then, was to grow the apple tree, rather like a grapevine - in a cordon fashion with two arms going either way, each 1.5m long. Like the image below:

Is that possible with apple trees?
Would the tree need to be staked? (The branches will obviously be attached to the fence)

For you, what size hole would be preferable for the tree to flourish? I've got a semi-circle with a radius of over 2m to work with, so I have plenty of room to work in and around, including depths to ~1.5m. Should I dig to a certain depth, line with well rotted manure, then work back up with compost? (I've bought 2x75 litre bags for the job and have another 50 Litre bag lying around too.

And finally (sorry about all these questions) is there any particular feed you would advocate for this rootstock?

I apologise for the mad rush of questions, but I've read around on the internet and there isn't a consistent answer. I'm aware M9 can be a little tricky to live with, but I'm after the perfect conditions for it to excel in and I'm unsure as to the depths and quantities needed to ensue maximum chance of it flourishing.

I am also tempted, to purchase some M25 Rootstock in the future and graft on a scion from this tree if it does what I'm intending it to do (although, without the cordon system for it's arms).

You can grow apple trees like grapevines - it would be a variation on the espalier style.
When it comes to the size of an espalier, I suggest looking at how wide you want it to be and then see which rootstock would grow to that width.
To achieve a 1.5metre (5ft) spread either side of the trunk (10ft overall spread), you'd ideally want a very strong rootstock such as MM111 or M25. In good soil it might be possible with MM106. Those three rootstocks would not need staking but the arms might need support.
M25 tends to encourage a thicker stronger branch structure than other rootstocks, so might not need supporting if well trained. MM111 encourages quite slender branches which are more likely to bend under the weight of fruit.
If M9 was grown with a very vigorous variety (such as Bramley, Blenheim, Gascoyne's Scarlet - all triploids) then it might be possible to reach a spread of 10ft.
The power of the sapflow from M9 roots just isn't enough to get the sap more than a couple of feet from the trunk in each direction, unless grown on an excellent soil (moist, fertile, deep).
If you must persist with M9, you could try digging-out a large and deep area, replacing half the topsoil with a mixture of well-rotted manure and compost.

If you plan to try with M9 (I think that you'll be lucky to get the arms of the espalier more than 3ft in each direction no matter what you do) then I suggest a good mulch with rotted manure late each winter and maybe a second mulch later in the season. You could also consider using fish, blood and bone fertiliser immediately prior to manuring.

You may struggle to find a supplier of M25 rootstock and even if you do, you will need to grow it up for a season or two before grafting. I find that most rootstocks are difficult to keep the leaves free from mildew in particular, which eventually kills them (after 2-3 years) unless you're prepared to spray. Of course, once grafted, the rootstock uses the scion leaves, which have their own resistance (or not).

I'm leaning more towards seedling rootstocks, which, being a new genetic combination will not necessarily be prone to the diseases which have spent the last 50+ years evolving to specialise in attacking the current selection of rootstocks.
I found this out to my cost after losing half an orchard of MM106 to the same root-attacking disease which obviously had become well-adapted to attack MM106 and must have been brought in on one or more of the trees.

[FB.]

Tree size estimator is here:

> link <

[FB.]

A plus point of M9 rootstock (and M27, M26 and MM111 to some extent) is that the roots are more tolerant of overwatering than the very-root-rot-prone MM106 and, to some extent, the slightly-rot-prone M25.
Therefore, overwatering is less likely to be a problem if you have M9 rootstock (although any plants roots may suffocate if in soggy, saturated soil for prolonged periods during the active growing season).
Good water and nutrient supply is key to preventing "runt-out" of M9, which will all-too-easily stop growing and produce small and worthless fruits before the roots hve become established.

With M9, it is absolutely essential not to allow woolly aphid to become established.
If the woolly aphid get down to the roots, the roots will become deformed, split and stunted (and rots will enter the splits) - and you won't be able to do anything about it because you can't spray or squash what lies beneath the ground. Th M9 roots just don't have the vigour to outgrow woolly aphids.
Stronger rootstocks, such as M25 or seedling, aren't resistant to woolly aphid, but have enough vigour to outgrow pests and diseases.
MM-prefix rootstocks and also M116 have resistance to woolly aphid. M116 and MM106 are medium vigour, but will not tolerate nearly as much stress as MM111. In good soil, M116 and MM106 are fairly similar in vigour to MM111, but in poor soil, M116 and especially MM106 fall behind MM111.