New Orchard

**FB.** · 09-09-2013, 10:34 AM

I would have reservations about so many East-of-England varieties. They often don't perform so well when grown elsewhere due to the rather different climate in the South-East and East Anglia (especially the high levels of autumn sunshine in their native regions relative to other parts of the UK).
Set the following map to "sunshine" and "autumn" and you'll see just how sunny their native areas are - and the late-ripening varieties such as Sturmer really do need a lot of sun in Sept-Oct to give them flavours and sugars as they approach ripeness in early November.
Met Office: UK mapped climate averages

Sturmer Pippin and Chivers Delight prefer a hot, dry climate. They may not ripen properly and may suffer canker in other climates.

However, if nobody experimented we'd never know.

Your mix of rootstocks will result in considerable variation in tree vigour. I think the Sturmer/M9 will be notably small compared to the others. The Braddick/MM106 will be noticeably large compared to the others.
Quince C would have been a better choice for pear cordons unless your soil is horrible; QA is similar in vigour to MM106 in average soils with adequate moisture.

I don't see pollination being a problem.

**orangepippin** · 09-09-2013, 11:02 AM

You don't say what your objectives are for the orchard - perhaps you specifically want to grow these varieties - but I think it is noticeable that you have not chosen any "premier league" apple varieties apart from Ashmead's Kernel. I would be inclined to revisit the Hoary Morning, Chelmsford Wonder, and Bloody Ploughman, and instead think about flavour ... but flavour is one of my personal objectives, and yours might be different. All I am saying is it is often useful to have an overall purpose or theme to a collection.

I agree with FB about the mix of rootstocks, I think you will get a better result if you decide on a mature tree size (dwarf, semi-vigorous, or full-size) and then choose varieties that are available on the relevant rootstock.

FB has commented on the need for autumn sunshine on the Sturmer Pippin, and I think that might also go for the Braddick's Nonpareil (although I am pleased to see that on your list, if you can get it to ripen it is a splendid sharp apple).

**Kirk** · 09-09-2013, 11:11 AM

Would drop Hoary Morning, not a very appertising apple. Described as:
Fruits have firm, rather coarse-textured, dry flesh which is not particularly acid and with no flavour.

**Paulieb** · 09-09-2013, 12:05 PM

Right then, thanks for the feedback, I'm happy to adjust the order if it might bring better results, as its going to be a long project, however with so many varieties I am prepared to gamble on 1 or 2.

Sturmer Pippin and Brad's Nonpareil were chosen purely as my favourite apple is a Granny Smith (also needing a long summer). Hence to get those varieties they're not currently available on M26, so went for other possible cordon rootstocks!?!

As well as growing a varied range of unusual apples/pears, another reason for row of cordons is almost a design feature to the veg part of the garden and in that case I'm flexible on the final height, and prepared to regularly prune if required, though I appreciate the more vigorous roots/scions could stand out more.

I have considered local area, but I think only Ashmead's Kernel is a Gloucestershire apple. Lots of somerset apples seem to be cider apples (which I'm not that bothered with).

Originally posted by orangepippin View Post

You don't say what your objectives are for the orchard - perhaps you specifically want to grow these varieties - but I think it is noticeable that you have not chosen any "premier league" apple varieties apart from Ashmead's Kernel. I would be inclined to revisit the Hoary Morning, Chelmsford Wonder, and Bloody Ploughman, and instead think about flavour ... but flavour is one of my personal objectives, and yours might be different. All I am saying is it is often useful to have an overall purpose or theme to a collection.

I agree with FB about the mix of rootstocks, I think you will get a better result if you decide on a mature tree size (dwarf, semi-vigorous, or full-size) and then choose varieties that are available on the relevant rootstock.

Could you suggest a few western origin apples that would be 'premier'? Out of the apples I only really want 2 cookers. I did pick out Edward VII, but couldn't find an available suitable pollinator.

**orangepippin** · 09-09-2013, 12:34 PM

I am not really sure where these come from, but I think they would be suitable for your west of England climate and they all have good flavours:

Cornish Aromatic, Christmas Pippin, Ellison's Orange, Holstein, Jupiter, Bright Future, Meridian, Saturn, Tydeman's Late Orange.

I would include Braddicks Nonpareil and Chivers Delight too.

Yummersetter will have better local knowledge though.

**orangepippin** · 09-09-2013, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by Kirk View Post

Would drop Hoary Morning, not a very appertising apple. Described as:
Fruits have firm, rather coarse-textured, dry flesh which is not particularly acid and with no flavour.

That's brilliant, and I would agree with this, the "no flavour" bit is the killer! It makes you wonder why anyone would bother with this variety, but every apple has some feature which makes it worthwhile in some situation or other - although in this case it sounds like it may be fairly obscure.

**FB.** · 09-09-2013, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by Paulieb View Post

I did pick out Edward VII, but couldn't find an available suitable pollinator.

Pollination won't be a problem. An apple tree's pollination day is only the usual peak blossom day, but some flowers may be open several days before or after that. It only takes 5-10% of flowers to be pollinated to give a full crop - any more will just result in a heavy "June drop" or production of lots of small fruit if the tree doesn't drop the excess fruits.

The later an apple flowers the more chance that bees will have "contaminated" themselves and their nests/hives with pollen from early and middle-season apples, and therefore there may be pollen transfer occurring several days after a bee last visited another apple tree.

The main problem with pollination is that early-flowering varieties don't have the benefit of lost of pollen already contaminating the bees.

**FB.** · 09-09-2013, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by orangepippin View Post

the "no flavour" bit is the killer!

In my experience, "no flavour" is usually a problem if grown in the wrong climate. Get the climate right and some "flavourless" varieties can be surprisingly good. Get the climate wrong and some "tasty" varieties can be surprisingly unpleasant.
I have several varieties of fruit that "the books" speak harshly about, yet I find them to be both tasty and easy to grow in my climate, while others which are highly praised can unpleasant and sickly.

My home-grown Egremont Russet are neither tasty nor is the tree healthy. On the other hand my home-grown Spartan are very tasty and the tree is completely healthy.
But in the rare years when here in East Anglia we get cool/dull autumns my Spartan apples will taste like chewing on a piece of wood.

**FB.** · 09-09-2013, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by orangepippin View Post

I am not really sure where these come from, but I think they would be suitable for your west of England climate and they all have good flavours:

Cornish Aromatic, Christmas Pippin, Ellison's Orange, Holstein, Jupiter, Bright Future, Meridian, Saturn, Tydeman's Late Orange.

I would include Braddicks Nonpareil and Chivers Delight too.

Yummersetter will have better local knowledge though.

I'd be cautious of Tydeman's Late Orange. In my area it ripens very late (November) and it prefers a hot, dry, sunny autumn climate (hence it finding some favour in the USA).

**yummersetter** · 09-09-2013, 03:12 PM

Have you tasted these fruits? Be very wary of going by an interesting name, apple breeders know the power of an slap-me-rigid / rosytasty type name to sell their wares. Apple day isn't far off and there are usually apples to sample at local events, and often pears too.
Cookers - this year I have a fantastic crop of Peasgood Nonsuch - I'll put a picture up soon. I'd advise Orleans Reinette as a great cooker and delicious eater as well.
And I wouldn't be me if I didn't point out that Kidds Orange Red is missing . . .

**Kirk** · 09-09-2013, 03:53 PM

The comment No flavour came from the Brogdale site, they hold the national apple collection, only a couple of thousand.

I planted the following:
Holstein, Claygate Pearmain, Duke of Derbyshire, Merton Beauty, Court Pendu Platt, Nutmeg Pippin, Orange De Sonneville, Karmijn De Sonneville and Vlaanden Roems.

Court Pendu Platt was more for curiosity then anything.

Had them grafted at Brogdale on to the rootstock I wanted. Bought about half on actual taste, visited the Brogdale apple orchids 3 times - ate quite a few. Others selected from The Apple Book. An alternative The Book of Apples is good and lists the Brogdale collection

**Paulieb** · 09-09-2013, 05:36 PM

Cool. I'll perhaps have a bit of a rethink.

A couple were initially picked on name (hoary morning) or just 'rarity' but I was trying to be sensible in the main.

I need to ascertain where I lie between 'chuck it in.....its got two choices' and 'its costing money and will take years so lets get it right first time'.

Orleans Reinette and KOR are two that I have considered this afternoon, and I will take note of both your tasting notes, and really try to go to a local apple/pear tasting day.

**Kirk** · 09-09-2013, 06:43 PM

When I collected 6 of mine at Brogdale I was talking to someone from Hereford area who was collecting his. He was picking up 200. He had decided to plant 2 rows of 100 each and had picked 2 each of 100 different varieties. Think they were all M9 rootstock.

Often wondered what happened to his plan, but I bet he cannot all the apples he gets.

Problem is I have no idea where you researched the apples you selected from, as I said mine was The Apple Book - about 120 varieties listed, then I heard of Brogdale and visited to find 2000+ apple varieties and that they would graft any variety on to any rootstock. Trouble is they have so many you could spend 10 years trying select any.

Just seen it in my book and also listed as high on OrangePippen but Irish Peach seems a good one, perhaps in place or Hoary Morning.

If you had a corner to hide it in

get a grafted Knobby Russet.

Orangepippen describe it as:
Green and yellow fruit, sometimes scarlet streaked in the sun. Uneven surface is overlaid with rough gray and black russet, welts and knobs; worthy of its name. Crisp, rich, sugary, highly flavored flesh of the highest quality.

The Brogdale book says:
Curiosity, covered in knobs or warts. Heavily russetted, strongly flavoured.

Damn ugly apple, resembles a toad attached to an airline

but tastes good. Yes I was just mad enough to get one.

**Paulieb** · 09-09-2013, 08:25 PM

I started my research with an rhs book on veg and a couple other non apple specific books which wasn't the most in deth. Then I decided I wanted about 10/12 cordons, so based on an M26 rootstock spent ages on Keepers seeing what was available on that rootstock, except for those which I chose that aren't on M26.

I was perhaps too much interested in those with unusual names or that I'd not heard of, but would perhaps be wiser to pick a few for disease resistance, or more well known flavour.

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