To plough or not to plough

**Alice** · 27-06-2007, 10:21 PM

Not sure about your question CandJ. Are you talking about taking on the 2 acres all on your own, or is this a village project to be devided up. I would think 2 acres to yourself would be unmanageale unless you are taking it on as a small business. I have 1 acre of garden, most of it ornamental trees and shrubbery. I could never manage it all as a vegetable garden - and what would I do with all those vegetables. I like them young and sweet, not in the freezer for 3 years.
I'm sure the soil structure experts will be along to advise you. I don't like the idea of ploughing or skimming off top inches. I think you just disturb the soil structure that way. I don't dig. I leave the top soil where it is - on the top.
Interesting to hear how you get on.

**SarzWix** · 27-06-2007, 10:54 PM

I would say don't plough, or skim... Are you wanting it to be clear before anyone is given a plot? Or just look tidy enough to divide up? I would say firstly, cut down the top growth somehow (friendly local farmer maybe? or team of people with hired strimmers?) and see what you're dealing with. If it's diggable, divvy it up, and let people work out the clearing for themselves. The only other option IMO, is to blast it with glyphosate (round-up type weedkiller), wait a month or so, blast any regrowth, wait another month or so and then you might get away with ploughing it and dividing it up. The carpet/weed-fabric way is ok on a small scale, but it takes 3 years to properly kill off the weeds - can you wait that long?

**SimonCole** · 28-06-2007, 12:32 AM

The advice I have to offer is not to skim the top 5". This is the most important horizon in your soil because it contains the rhizosphere and the chemical and biological composition that is critical to pant growth!

**Hazel at the Hill** · 28-06-2007, 12:43 AM

If this area has been used as allotments once, candj, then the soil will have been good then.....and will be good now (hence the weeds!).

I've no great experience (at all!) but it strikes that it would be a shame to start from scratch as I'm sure there will still be lots of viable fruit bushes/perennial veg which may also be interesting varieties BUT I'm also sure that it will have been well overwhelmed with unwanted 'everything else' up to and including saplings!

SO I guess that if the whole area can be strimmed to the ground, then turned over with the plough (you're only turning over 6" of topsoil to bury the weeds) and then leave it covered with weed surpressant so the weeds don't resprout would be as good as an idea as any, and it means you haven't had to spray.

Not easy, as when the site is split into plots (are you thinking of offering them out from the new year when the above has 'taken effect'....?) there will still be a lot to do, but your new plotties will know it's been tamed once, it can be tamed again!

Good luck with the project!

**Snadger** · 28-06-2007, 06:13 AM

If you could re-establish the original plot boundaries and find out how many there were, I would think that you and the other five people who made the application could start on your individual plots and just weedkill the boundary lines for when the rest are 'Alloted'?

Not sure of how many plots to an acre but roughly the total area is the size of a football pitch? Once access paths and roads have been established, then you'll know how many plots you are dealing with!

**Protea** · 28-06-2007, 10:27 AM

I think it really depends on the weeds that are currently in residence as to what method would be best. If there are brambles, marestail, or copious amonts of bind weed then i wouldn't plough, as it won't really solve the problem and they'll just pop up again a few months down the line.

If however its mostly annual and some not so nasty perenials (docks, thistles, nettles etc) then i would be tempted to plough - but do it in the autumn (traditionally it was done late and the frost would help break up the soil further, ready for planting in the spring). After its done, the plots can be marked out and it would be ideal for new plot holders to then set about digging manure in or sowing green manures for the spring - this way you would be removing a good proportion of the weed bank (by ploughing) and maintaining the soil structure by using manures (and also suppressing any weeds that pop up again with green manures).

If the council can rope a friendly farmer in, you might want to consider this mustard green manure that biofumigates the soil when chopped in: http://www.plantsolutionsltd.com/caliente.htm i used it last year on certain parts of my allotment (see pic below) and the weed suppression has been amazing. I chopped it in by hand, but doing it with machinery would be much easier, especially on a 2 acre site!

Attached Files

**The Doctor** · 28-06-2007, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by SimonCole View Post

The advice I have to offer is not to skim the top 5". This is the most important horizon in your soil because it contains the rhizosphere and the chemical and biological composition that is critical to pant growth!

Wow, I'd have thought pants had enough chemical and biological composition to grow all on their own!

Have to try them next year.

Sorry, Simon, couldn't resist it!

**rustylady** · 28-06-2007, 05:44 PM

Don't skim any soil off, and please don't use chemicals. Strim off top-growth, clear, and then plough the rest. Hopefully you will have a lot of people ready to take on plots before you actually clear the site, and as long as the bulk of the clearing has been done and the plots marked out, they will be happy to carry on from there. I took on a plot that was shoulder high in brambles and docks but any help to clear before starting (esp on a new site) will obviously go down well. Also bear in mind that many new (or aspiring) plot holders will want to avoid chemicals so if you spray beforehand to clear it may well put them off.

**TPeers** · 28-06-2007, 07:26 PM

Add to that - if you have proof of no 'chemical' (I hate that misuse) interferance for over three years you might be able to register the site as an organic allotment.

Strim, mark and dig - you will need paths, so mow them - but be prepared, if the ground has been a meadow for the last umpty ump years it will be full of leather jackets and wireworm - rootcrops are likely to be a disaster for a year or two.

Good Luck

Terry

**pammiep** · 29-06-2007, 12:15 PM

Have just got a plot from a farmer who has ploughed it for us (wish he hadnt after reading various threads but anywhere is done now. What can you do about leath.jacks.&wireworm organically? We have been silly and bought lots of plants from nursery to put in without treating, manuring, liming etc. Do you think it will be disaster or worth trying? Any help appreciated as newbie and just finding out things but v. enthusiastic. pammiep

**vegnut** · 29-06-2007, 02:48 PM

Hi Candj
Iwould mark out the site into individual plots, and then offer them to allotmenteers for free, for the first year. So apart from mowing the paths, i'd let them do what they want to do to their own plot. If you are going to have to wait a year to sort it all out anyway, then you have nothing to lose.
Good luck whatever way you do it.
Dave

**SimonCole** · 01-07-2007, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by The Doctor View Post

Wow, I'd have thought pants had enough chemical and biological composition to grow all on their own!

Have to try them next year.

Sorry, Simon, couldn't resist it!

I've been reading this for 5/10 minutes trying to work it out... Then I just realised and have been laughing out load for the last 15!!!

Classic. Make sure you try them next year

**Snadger** · 01-07-2007, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by Protea View Post

I think it really depends on the weeds that are currently in residence as to what method would be best. If there are brambles, marestail, or copious amonts of bind weed then i wouldn't plough, as it won't really solve the problem and they'll just pop up again a few months down the line.

If however its mostly annual and some not so nasty perenials (docks, thistles, nettles etc) then i would be tempted to plough - but do it in the autumn (traditionally it was done late and the frost would help break up the soil further, ready for planting in the spring). After its done, the plots can be marked out and it would be ideal for new plot holders to then set about digging manure in or sowing green manures for the spring - this way you would be removing a good proportion of the weed bank (by ploughing) and maintaining the soil structure by using manures (and also suppressing any weeds that pop up again with green manures).

If the council can rope a friendly farmer in, you might want to consider this mustard green manure that biofumigates the soil when chopped in: http://www.plantsolutionsltd.com/caliente.htm i used it last year on certain parts of my allotment (see pic below) and the weed suppression has been amazing. I chopped it in by hand, but doing it with machinery would be much easier, especially on a 2 acre site!

Can I ask where you got the caliente mustard seed from,? how much it was? and whether it can be grown as a winter crop?

Sounds impressive!

**CandJ** · 03-07-2007, 08:29 PM

Thanks everyone for all yo0ur advice. It's our Open Gardens weekend this week so we're putting a display up to try to garner support. After that we'll see what happens - will keep you posted, and probably keep asking questions!

Incidentally, currently no fruit bushes at all under the weeds - rather randomly the site has been used as a radio controlled car racing track for the last 10 years! About time it was put back to its proper use i think!

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