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  • apples/pears/plums border advice & opinions needed

    hello everyone,
    I've got a border area which is 9m long and 1.2m wide. It runs along a 1.8m tall fence which is north facing, but also has the tops of my neighbours shrubs, making it around 2.2m tall. Interestingly, there used to be some very old shrubs in the border that grew quite tall and leafy before I removed them. This may be because the tops of the shrubs got sunlight for a reasonable part of the day, or possibly the rich and moist soil underneath them. I would say the soil is quite fertile and moisture retentive/slightly water logged (due to lack of light, warmth or the high water table in the area.)
    My predicament is this: I would like to try and grow some fruit in this border. It will be an experiment, so within reason, I am willing to be disappointed! Obviously I would like to do all that I can to minimise failure (choice of fruit, variety, rootstock, training) , but realise the odds may be stacked against me.
    I'm interested in desert varieties of apple, pear and plum, and being ambitious (if a little greedy) would like to get as much viable fruit as possible, as tree numbers, rootstocks, planting distance, forms allow.
    The actual fence is not in great condition either, and due to it's north-facing orientation would not allow any training onto it. Something like a free-standing espalier shape, with some support rigged up around it might work, but I doubt it. My idea would be to grow trees that would be like half/standards, but no more than 4m tall ie. more at the top, above the fence, where the sunlight is. A concern over apples is they fruit on lateral shoots, so would need to be pruned/trained to encourage these, while being high up in the canopy. Maybe fruit trees that have a naturally upright shape might help. Similarly, would ideas like planting more trees close to each other and severe pruning and summer pruning encourage fruiting? despite the not ideal conditions.
    Any ideas or suggestions will be welcome (apologies for the poor diagram.)
    Attached Files

  • #2
    To my thinking the problem is that you say 4m tall to clear the fence/hedge that also means a tree of some spread. I have a cherry of about 4 mtr and it easily has a spread of 3 mtr if not 4 mtr. Implying that in a 9 mtr bed 3 or 4 trees. It is also big and unruly. A plum I have is smaller but the spread is still fair.

    The M106 rootstock is quoted as 2.5-4.5 mtr height but 3.5-4.5 mtr between trees. Back to the not many trees situation.

    I do have one apple that may fit, it is/was a columnar/minarette from (Ithink) Ken Muir. They grow as an ulright stem with very short side branches. Mine is a cooker, well I think it is. It is at it's full height, has not grown for some years and is sat at 4 mtr high, maybe a little more.

    Branches are about 60cm/2ft but they also grow vertical not really horizontal. The overall width is little more then 60cm/2ft. They could be spaced at 1 mtr apart and would not touch.

    Thinking that a row of these would produce a line of assorted fruit. I am lazy and the tree has not been pruned in living memory. Problem is I cannot recall where I purchased it.

    As said I know Ken Muir does varieties called Minarette fruit trees, however I have the nagging idea mine was termed Columnar. Concerning Ken Muir, I was looking a few days back and his site is a little indistinct concerning Minarette fruit trees. I would suggest a search for columnar and minarette - they came out something 30+ years ago as Ballarina trees and I assume were refined a bit.

    Mine doesn't fruit heavily, however the apples tend to be a good size, last year I think it was 8-12 4" dia cookers off it. Might be down to the untouched by human hand for 12 years aspect.

    The alternative is a "standard" fruit tree/tres and you train them into cordons or similar.

    Have normal apples on M9 rootstock and if I was in the position you are I would be looking at the Minarette trees. I was thinking of removing the cherry I have and replacing with Minarettes myself, as a row of 4 trees, I could fit 4 in the space easily and get a greater variety. Situation changed and for now I decided to leave the cherry in.

    Comment


    • #3
      Your idea of putting a standard/s in the bed would probably be best in terms of getting enough sun to ripen the apples/pears enough. And in general pears in particular need plenty of sun.

      I'm currently looking at putting in some cordon/columnar apple pear trees (planted 3ft apart), but this is on the north side (so south facing) of my garden, as ideally the tree will pretty much fruit from 1ft off the ground up to as high as I can grow them. Plums are not supposed to be ideal for training

      There are also some issues of picking with a 4m high standard tree, I'd rather not have to start climbing ladders to pick my apples/pears.

      Personally, if possible I'd leave this bed to other shrubby plants, or maybe currants/gooseberries (you could fan train some gooseberries on a north facing wall), and dig an equal size bed on the other side of the garden (if possible), and fill that will some nice apples and pears which could be on dwarf rootstocks, or trained, depending on soil, etc.

      Another issue with putting a big tree's there, is that you'll only be casting more shade over the rest of you garden!
      The more help a man has in his garden, the less it belongs to him.
      William M. Davies

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      • #4
        Also, in researching my apple trees, there are a whole range of apple trees for different purposes. The majority are spur bearers, but some are tip bearers, where pruning would result in no blossom or fruit!
        The more help a man has in his garden, the less it belongs to him.
        William M. Davies

        Comment


        • #5
          Hello, I've recently planted up my garden with several fruit trees of one type or another and have done a fair bit of research on this.

          Be aware there is a difference between the 'ballerina' trees mentioned by Kirk and the 'minarettes' sold by Ken Muir and others.

          The ballerina types are specific varieties that naturally grow tall and upright without any (or minimal) pruning. Downside is they are only available in a handful of obscure varieties so if you are looking to grow something specific you are out of luck.

          The minarettes are just 1 year old trees that you have to prune yourself to keep them upright. There is nothing special about them really, just a clever piece of marketing by Ken Muir. It just demonstrates it is possible to prune a regular apple tree to keep it upright rather than a 'new' product. Plus points are you can grow any variety as a minarette (any spur bearer) and the pruning is very strightforward (ken muir sends a little leaflet through explaining how/when to do it).

          It is generally recommended to only grow apples and pears as minarette/upright cordons. I.e not plums or cherries which dont like the pruning required and don't fruit in the same way.

          For the shaded area you describe I would say you would have your work cut out to produce any kind of sweet desert type fruit. If you are willing to look at fruits to cook with you would have a few more options.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks for the replies folks - keep them coming - let's have some fruity brainstorming!
            I've realised that the idea I had in mind was poorly conveyed in the posting (and especially the diagram.) Here's goes with another attempt... and another poor diagram!


            My standard tree idea was to have the clear stem out of the light and the top branch sytem (leaves & fruit) to be in sunlight. This may encourage some fruit to form and possibly ripen. The stem section may be wasted, but it does not get enough direct sun to allow fruiting from low down to high up, as most trained fruit has (cordons, fans espaliers.) However, the idea of a tree trained to be like a tall step-over (one tier espalier) might work, but it wastes a lot lot of space and would need some training! A big T - tall stem and long laterals. It will also look "ahem" bizarre (no laughing please.) I would ideally like the overall height of the tree to be around 4m and pruned so that most of thefruiting branches hang over my side of the fence. Don't mind climbing a ladder. I used to go up an old apple bush tree that had an open goblet shape that had a 1m tall stem in my old garden. That tree would do well in this situation if I removed the brances that would push into the fence.
            Regarding varieties I've tasted and enjoyed: Apples - Sunset, Egremont Russet, Discovery, Scrumptious, Spartan, Fiesta, Red Falstaff. Pears - Comice, Concorde, Beth, Conference, Williams. Plums - Jubilee, Opal, Victoria, Green Gage, Ouillins Gage. Currently I'm thinking of 2 apple trees, 2 pear trees and forgoing plums for lack of space and ripening conditions. As I don't want any culinary only varieties, and if desert varieties are difficult in semi-shade or sun for only half the day, then how about dual purpose variety as a compromise. Then it could be left to ripen for longer and eaten as a desert. Or maybe planting early varieties and just leaving them to get sun for longer and picking later. Suagrs may have developed by then.
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • #7
              A standard tree, probably on quite a vigorous rootstock, would probably be best in the case you outline above, though I would try to check before purchase that the main trunk of the tree will be long enough as once you purchase a 'standard' tree it'll be difficult to make the trunk taller. Also a 'spur-bearer' wouldn't be necessary for a tree of that shape, unless you planned to prune it regularly.

              As a side thought (alternative)......... If you've watched Gardeners World closely, Monty Don has, I think, 4 pear trees grown as 'tall' one tier espaliers which join up in a square as a centre piece. And along the same lines, the first picture on this page (favorite garden element: espalier trees... - Velvet & Linen) may give you some idea of a tall espalier which may suit your requirements.

              I very much doubt you could buy these, so you'd have to start with a 1yr maiden and train it yourself. It'd take a while but would be worth it in the end.
              Last edited by Paulieb; 16-09-2013, 10:31 PM.
              The more help a man has in his garden, the less it belongs to him.
              William M. Davies

              Comment


              • #8
                North facing in Cornwall is a tad different to North facing in the north of Scotland.

                Perhaps you could let us know where you are doing your gardening?

                Comment


                • #9
                  The key thing seems to be to get the top of the tree above the fence line. In addition, you don't want the canopy to overlap the fence line because inevitably the best fruit will be on the neighbour's side.

                  The obvious solution - but not easy to achieve - would be pleached trees. Think of them as hedges or espaliers on stilts. You will probably need vigorous rootstocks to get the necessary height, maybe FB has some comments. Given the apparently good soil perhaps apple MM111 or pear Pyrodwarf might work. You might get 3-4 trees in the space you have. Note that pleaching is probably not possible with stone fruits.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    sorry, forget to mention my location - South Birmingham (West Midlands)

                    Pleached trees do look interesting. It's kind of like what I had in mind for my "standard idea." My thought was to try to get hold of a tree which was as developed (2 years old ish) and had a basic shape that could be alterted. Not sure I have the necessary skill to train a feathered maiden or whip. Also it would give me a head start. Not that I am impatient, just keen to move the thing along. A lot of nurseries seem to offer 2 year old standards, half standards etc with some formative pruning already done and a stem established. Normally on mm106. Need to research mm111 and availability.

                    I assume bare root is the way to go. Need to look at suppliers too, as availability for something specific to my needs at this time of year might be scarce.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It is possible to buy semi-mature pleached trees but they cost £hundreds, and you will need lifting equipment (forklift etc) to plant them.

                      A 2-year half-standard would be a more cost-effective starting point, but I am not sure if it would have the vigour to give the height you need ... in good soil it might do. These are usually on MM106, so a bit less vigorous than MM111 but not a lot in it if you have good soils, as it sounds like you do.

                      You can also buy 2-year vigorous trees which are typically cut at around 1.75m, for training on as standards and would certainly have the vigour you need. In fact they may end up being too vigorous.

                      On balance I might start with a half-standard MM106 and go from there, and accept it might not work quite as you envisaged, but it sounds like you already recognise it is a bit of a challenge - and will be fun to try.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by orangepippin View Post
                        ".....maybe FB has some comments....."
                        I'd avoid MM111 in this case - I think it could be problematic for bitter pit in fertile, damp soils because such soils are often fairly acidic whereas MM111 prefers low-fertility, neutral to slightly alkaline.
                        M25 would be preferable, grafted with a below-average-vigour, spur-bearing variety if there are concerns over how fast it might grow.
                        Having said that: if M25 is fairly lightly pruned with thinning cuts rather than heading cuts, it can quickly be encouraged to put most of its energy into fruit because of the invigorating and blossom-supressing effect of heading cuts.

                        Pyrodwarf would be fine.
                        .

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by orangepippin View Post
                          These are usually on MM106, so a bit less vigorous than MM111 but not a lot in it if you have good soils, as it sounds like you do.

                          On balance I might start with a half-standard MM106 and go from there, and accept it might not work quite as you envisaged, but it sounds like you already recognise it is a bit of a challenge - and will be fun to try.
                          In higher-rainfall parts of the UK there isn't much difference between MM106 and MM111. The difference becomes noticeable the further East you go.
                          Put a Bramley or Blenheim on MM106 and it'll make a full standard in good soil. Put a D'Arcy Spice or Court Pendu Plat on M25 and you'll be lucky to get it to grow to be a standard in any soil.
                          .

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                          • #14
                            I have an order placed currently with keepers who have an impressive range of rootstocks and varieties. (Other stockists are available!).

                            You may get hold of a potted plant now, but the best time to plant trees is in the winter, which would usually be supplied as a bareroot.
                            The more help a man has in his garden, the less it belongs to him.
                            William M. Davies

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Getting loads of ideas here. Thank you all so much. This is a rather diverting me from where my mind should be (firmly on the day job), but in a pleasant and far more stimulating way. I was originally just going to put in 4 standards, treat them as big lollipops and try and mesh them into a screen of some sort. I figured so longer as it didn't look too untidy and had enough laterals for some viable fruit to form than that would be enough.
                              This is now in danger of becoming one of my obsessive mini projects and diverting my attention from other things that need doing around the house and garden (they will have to wait.) Never thought it could be so interesting. Better the family don't know about it, as they'd think I'm mad and deliberately doing things the hard way. I am guilty of this. Bit of a recovering addict you might say.

                              Anyway, mention of pleaching has led me to uncover this
                              BBC Two - Gardeners' World, 2010, Episode 26, How to pleach trees from scratch

                              As he's doing it with crab apples, I wonder if it is possible with apples and pears. I'd like the top height to not really get over 4m though, as that's the sort of height the previous shrubs were and one of the reasons why they had to go. Maybe using his ideas and combining them with my original 4 standards ideas, I could create a hedge running down the centre of the border. That wouldn't spill over to the neighbour's and not block the path.
                              PS - orangepippin " It is possible to buy semi-mature pleached trees but they cost £hundreds"
                              Wouldn't dream of it. The family would definitely have me sectioned! That's more like my entire budget for the whole fruit border project. It is just a bit of fun experimenting after all!!

                              Comment

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