liming

[Nicos]

Am about to lime my plot and as I'm new to fruit growing, I was wondering if the final pH has an effect on how sweet the fruit will be? ie will a pH of 7 produce sweeter fruit than a pH of say 5? I know blueberries like acid soil and they are sweet, but how about other fruit?

[andrewo]

You don't need to lime fruit trees, use potash for this, liming is really for the veg patch and can effect the overall taste of the fruit. Never lime blueberries.

[Nicos]

You don't need to lime fruit trees, use potash for this, liming is really for the veg patch and can effect the overall taste of the fruit. Never lime blueberries.

Even with a pH of 3.5?

[nick the grief]

you're not growng hydroponically in battery acid are you Nicos!!!

I guess it would be good to aim for a neutral PH (aroung 6.5 - 7 PH) but Lime wont be very long lasting in that sort of soil I wouldn't have thought.

Not sure what would be the best solution to this one.

[Jaxom]

Even with a pH of 3.5?

If your soil is registering at 3.5 then nothing will grow in it, not even acid loving plants. I take it that you are hypothetically saying 3.5PH? If I remember correctly an acid soil that is below 5 has serious problems that are not solved just by adding lime. this is where I have to bow out. My garden has never been tested but I look at the weeds to see what is growing localy. This is normaly a good guide to what type of soil you have.

[Geordie]

Curiously sphagnum moss has a ph of 3.5 but i digress...a little guide of soil ph for you:

What is soil pH?

Soil pH is the measure of the acidity (sourness) or alkalinity (sweetness) of a soil. A simple numerical scale is used to express pH. The scale goes from 0.0 To 14.0, with 0.0 being most acid, and 14.0 being most alkaline. The value, 7.0 is neutral--i.e., neither acid or alkaline.

Why is pH important?
Soil pH is important because it influences several soil factors affecting plant growth, such as soil bacteria, nutrient leaching, nutrient availability, toxic elements, and soil structure. Bacterial activity that releases nitrogen from organic matter and certain fertilizers is particularly affected by soil pH, because bacteria operate best in the pH range of 5.5 to 7.0. Plant nutrients leach out of soils with a pH below 5.0 much more rapidly than from soils with values between 5.0 and 7.5. Plant nutrients are generally most available to plants in the pH range 5.5 to 6.5. Aluminum may become toxic to plant growth in certain soils with a pH below 5.0. The structure of the soil, especially of clay, is affected by pH. In the optimum pH range (5.5 to 7.0) clay soils are granular and are easily worked, whereas if the soil pH is either extremely acid or extremely alkaline, clays tend to become sticky and hard to cultivate.
A pH determination (soil test) will tell whether your soil will produce good plant growth or whether it will need to be treated to adjust the pH level. For most plants, the optimum pH range is from 5.5 to 7.0, but some plants will grow in more acid soil or may require a more alkaline level.
The pH is not an indication of fertility, but it does affect the availability of fertilizer nutrients. A soil may contain adequate nutrients yet growth may be limited by a very unfavorable pH. Likewise, builder's sand, which is virtually devoid of nutrients, may have an optimum pH for plant growth.

How to correct pH
Normally, lime or dolomite is used to increase the pH, or "sweeten" the soil. Lime contains mainly calcium carbonate and dolomite contains both calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. Ground limestone and dolomite are less likely to "burn" plant roots than hydrated lime and are therefore recommended for home use. The amount of these materials necessary to change the pH will depend on the soil. The greater the amount of organic matter or clay in a soil, the more lime or dolomite required to change the pH.

If a soil is tested as too alkaline, determine if this is due to recent application of lime or whether it is due to an inherent characteristic of the soil. It is quite difficult, if not impossible, to change appreciably the pH of naturally alkaline soil by use of acid-forming materials. If a high pH is due to applied lime or other alkaline additives, ammonium sulfate, sulfur, or similar acid-forming materials can be applied. Table 2 shows the amounts of sulfur needed to lower the pH.
Not more than 1 pound of sulfur per 100 square feet should be used in one application. Repeat applications of sulfur should not be made more often than once every 8 weeks. Sulfur oxidizes in the soil and mixes with water to form a strong acid that can burn the roots of plants and should be used with caution.

[Nicos]

Mmmm...interesting! Thanks
Yes the reading in parts was 3.5 on Sunday, but within a foot were readings of 7. Strange how there are these little pockets of highly acidic soil. The worst area is where the asparagus is growing, so as this is it's 2nd season,I'll hold my breath! This is why I wonder about liming the whole lot (except spuds). the old guys lime everything, so my gut feeling is to do as they do. Just wondered what would happen if I didn't. It's no wonder the fleece only seems to last one season on this plot! On the old clay plot it lasted 3-4 years. Becomes an expensive luxury now. Was very boggy this weekend so the watertable must be up again within 6 ins of the surface. Bit like walking on a bouncy castle, but not quite that extreme!! so....I presume I should lime my fruit then??? (don't raspberries or strawberries prefer an acid soil?) Oh for a bit of sand or clay!! Anyone else growing on peat?

[andrewo]

I would add alot of manure, liming can really screw your soil up if you don't know what you are doing. You are adding something that will quickly be washed away, so your soil could yo-yo between acid and neutral, this will put any plant under alot of stress. Suggest you manure, potash for your fruit and blood, fish and bone for your entire plot. Then move to dried manure for the rest of the season for your veg and plant a green manure in the autumn. Lime can cause more problems and is only a short term filler.

[Nicos]

Thanks - will do!

[nick the grief]

How did you measure it Nicos? If it's with one of the cheap probes Like I've got it the reading can vary in the same spot if it's not done correctly.

The surest option is unfortunately the most expensive and that's to send of samples to get them tested. If you tell them you want to grow veg they will give you a break down of your soil and tell you what's lacking and what needs correcting.

There are loads of places that are on the web & they will give you there prices (around £15 -£20) but then at least you'll know where your starting from, and probably never have to bother again.

[andrewo]

This is an old technique and it works - but it is slightly horrid - before testing kits, there was simple way of nowing if your soil was acid, take a small amount and suck it, you'll know if it's acid. After all, you are, when eating vegeatbles, eating the soil they were in, this just cuts out the middle man! But it works.

[andrewo]

It also gives you an incentive be organic and keep any cats off! Hmmmm, this soil, it's a slightly nutty taste....

[stevep]

could you tell me what soil and ph strawberrys like please

[andrewo]

Depends on the variety, straberries range from acid to alkaline, give them a good start with plenty of manure and potash, blood, fish and bone and you will be okay. I wouldn't get hung up on Ph, I would worry more about what type of soil you have, loam, chalk, clay.

[Nicos]

Thanks for all your support on this. I like the idea of tasting it strangely enough- seems very logical to me! Best to do it before all the muck etc though Yes it is one of the cheap probes I am using and I understand about getting lots of different readings due to technique, but I bought it because I was getting conflicting results too with the test tube testing and thought in the long run the electrical one would end up cheaper. It seems to vary depending on the height of the watertable and there are definite areas which appear much more acidic on a permanent basis. This leads me to think that a professional reading might only be accurate on that particular day and location. I think several samples over different seasons should do it...but as you say,is there much point in fighting nature? One thing to be said though is that the old guy before us hardly put any muck in for years, so this probably needs addressing big style. Next months GYO has just arrived and in the organic section they suggest wood ash is highly alkaline and as we have a wood stove, perhaps the ash we are collecting may help too - the only problem is that it is mixed with pureheat 'coal'. Will check it all out at weekend if the weather is OK