Most succesful Northern/Scottish fruit trees?

[realfood]

The John in the link is John Hancox, and here is a link to the stock list for this year Scottish Heritage Fruit Trees
with an immense choice of fruit trees.

[Iceland_Kris]

Perfect! Thank you realfood, that is very helpful

[FB.]

I have had James Grieve at my allotment for 20 years, and it is not my best performer as it is very prone to canker.

From what I've seen of my trees and trees belonging to others, triploid varieties are more likely to have a higher level of resistance to canker, or more likely to grow fast enough that their new shoot growth is greater than their losses to canker.

The problem with James Grieve is that so many people grow it (and have grown it) for so long in Scotland and the UK, that there are now numerous strains of diseases that have mastered the ability to attack it.
If a healthy James Grieve tree was planted somewhere outside the UK where James Grieve hadn't been grown before, I think it would be surprisingly disease resistant.
I suppose you could liken it to a form of 'replant disease', except that instead of the usual type of replant disease due to the roots being attacked by the local soil pests and diseases, in this case it's the shoots and leaves are attacked by the local above-ground pests and diseases blowing on the wind from old sick trees of that variety which may be many miles away.

[Iceland_Kris]

That's a good point FB.
Although I do wonder whether some of those diseases might not be travelling along with all the new fruit trees coming over here these last few years, so that the "disease-free" state would be quite short lived.

Of course that doesn't mean that it necessarily will happen though

[FB.]

If you buy varieties which are as far/distantly related to each other as possible, it's likely to mean you'll have a wider range of genetic resistance mechanisms among the trees, which will make it harder to diseases to pass from one tree to another.
But if you plant (for example) Worcester Pearmain, Discovery, Scrumptious, Red Devil and Katy, they're all related and therefore likely to have less genetic variation than (for example) James Grieve, Tydeman's Early Worcester, Egremont Russet, Bloody Ploughman and Tower of Glamis.

Unrelated varieties are also better pollinators, with more fruit (and better quality) than from related or self-pollinated trees.

I've mentioned a few times in recent years that I've been trialling Gravenstein (along with many other old and rare varieties - almost all of which are strong and very healthy). In many books and catalogues Gravenstein is listed as prone to all kinds of diseases.
But in England Gravenstein is very rare and totally unrelated to the varieties we grow here.
Not surprisingly, presumably because it is effectively fresh genetic material in the UK, I'm finding that it is totally resistant to canker, scab and mildew (and there are some very diseased crab apples nearby which undoubtedly are scattering fungal spores onto my trees; I don't spray any of my trees), and also Gravenstein seems more tolerant than many other apples when there are variations in the weather such as what we've seen in the last couple of years and even within one season (e.g. hot, cold, dry, wet, sunny, dull).

[Iceland_Kris]

Very true. I should be careful to check the parentage of my varieties better before any decisions.

Just out of curiosity, the Gravenstein, have you experienced much problems reg. dropping? As per for instance this quote -- "Gravs have a short, weak stem, and when the wind shakes them, down they go," said Walker ruefully. "Forty percent of my crop falls on the ground." -- ( Gravenstein apples' precarious future - Los Angeles Times )

[FB.]

Grav's don't hang too well, but it's partly due to the size of the apples pushing each other off, and partly because the apples seem to ripen over a period of about a month, which means some will be ready to fall off much sooner than others. Pest-damaged fruits fall earlier too, and the summer-ripening fruits generally suffer more insect damage than the late-autumn-ripening fruits.
Super-late-ripening varieties (which will not ripen to perfection in most parts of the UK) such as Sturmer Pippin, D'Arcy Spice and Tydeman's Late Orange don't tend to suffer much pest damage because they are hard, acid and flavourless - and remain very acid when picked in November, but they sweeten and become edible after a few months of storage.

Pick up the fallen ones, cut out the bruises and any slug/snail/bug holes and use them for cooking.
The ones which remain on the tree longer are more likely to be suitable for eating.

[FB.]

In my experience, the rootstock MM106 is much more likely to cause its scion to drop its fruit than the rootstock M25 and MM111. It seems to be related to how much stress the rootstock can witshtand - especially water stress in dry summers.
M25 and MM111 will tolerate a lot of stress and still hold onto their fruit. MM106 won't tolerate much at all before it drops them all, or at best will produce tiny apples. M26 will tolerate stress but will produce tiny apples the size of crab apples. M9 will tolerate stress but will suffer bitter pit if stressed.

A quick glance at your climate (if data on the internet is to be believed) suggests that you have the ideal amount of rainfall for apples (so most rootstocks should be OK apart from whether they can tolerate your winters). You climate appears to be about the same summer temperatures as the cooler parts of Scotland.

[FB.]

Final thought:
The growth rate of apple trees is partially temperature dependent.
In your cooler summers with weaker sunshine than most parts of the UK, you'll probably find that your trees grow a bit slower.
I would suggest making the assumption that all rootstocks will be one size class smaller than they would in the UK.
So if you want a MM106 size tree, you might want to use MM111 or M25. If you want a M26 size tree you might want to use MM106, M116 or MM111. If you want an M27 size tree you might want to use M9 or M26.
Make sure you consider their winter hardiness is suitable for your climate. M26 and MM111 are most likely to be the hardiest.

MM111 trees will drop their leaves and shut down for winter once they sense the weather changing, so they don't often get caught with leaves on when the frosty weather arrives.

MM106 encourages trees to come out of hibernation earlier and blossom earlier (more risk of frost damage, less pollinating insects around).

M25 encourages trees to grow late in the autumn (more risk of branches not being adequately hardened-off by the time winter arrives).

The scion grafted to the rootstock will also have an effect on when the tree goes dormant and hardens-off.

[orangepippin]

Just to add that none of the UK rootstocks are winter-hardy by North American standards. If temperatures are going below -10C then UK-supplied trees are unlikely to be suitable, regardless of the variety.

[FB.]

Just to add that none of the UK rootstocks are winter-hardy by North American standards. If temperatures are going below -10C then UK-supplied trees are unlikely to be suitable, regardless of the variety.

In coastal regions the ocean often buffers the temperature extremes. We sometimes lose Fuschia plants to frost and they don't grow wild here, but I've seen lots of them growing wild in many coastal areas of South-West England where winter frosts tend to be mild.

When we dropped to between -10'C and -14'C for a whole week a couple of years ago, I don't recall any significant damage on my trees. It was interesting that many of my trees had gone dormant unusually early the previous autumn - many having lost all their leaves and gone dormant before the end of September, which is unusually early.

[orangepippin]

I was referring to the earlier comment about USDA zones 3-4. Nowhere in the UK gets anywhere near that, certainly not any coastal region. If temperatures are regularly below -10C then Budagovsky or Geneva or Antonovka are likely to be more suitable than the Malling series (although MM106 with its Northern Spy parentage might be hardier than some of the others).

USDA zone 3 is -40C ...

[FB.]

(although MM106 with its Northern Spy parentage might be hardier than some of the others).

The MM rootstocks, M116 and M25 have Northern Spy as an ancestor.
The P rootstocks mostly have Antonovka as an ancestor.

In the distant past the scion variety 'Emperor Alexander' (Russian/Eastern European origin as with Antonovka) was popular in Northern parts of North America because it was one of the few that could survive extremely cold winters.

[Iceland_Kris]

Thanks guys, very informative and useful info much appreciated.