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The age old M9 vs M26 rootstock question

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  • #16
    " bitter pit " is basically caused by an inability of the tree to take up certain nutrients from the soil at the right time - so as FB has said the roots a tree has will impact on this problem because obviously a stronger and more extensive root system will mean its much more likely that the tree can get what it needs - BTW commercial growers tend to spray with a wash containing calcium, so that they can get the right nutrient in to the tree through the leaves and don't need to rely on the roots, if they know they are growing on ground which might cause a problem - some varieties are more prone to this than others.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Lady BlackThumb View Post
      FB, does that mean bitter pit is something that can be fixed via watering?
      Bitter pit is a complex subject. Many things can cause it, or a combination of things.

      On a side note, say I got an apple tree on vigorous rootstock that grows to like 4m tallxspread, but I only have space for something 1.8 x2m, could I keep pruning it to that smaller size for the rest of the tree's life?
      That's a complex subject, too.
      It depends on your soil quality, your water(rainfall) availability, grass/weed compeition, the vigour of the scion and your pruning. Lack of water and nutrients, or competition from other plants greatly reduces growth rate.
      Some scions will not make large trees even on the most vigorous rootstocks while some other scions will make large trees even on semi-dwarf rootstocks. I had (recently removed) a Blenheim Orange on M9 that was twice the size of a similar-age D'Arcy Spice on M25.
      Some scions simply don't do well when grafted to certain rootstocks while others do better than expected; partial incompatibility.
      I've particularly had problems with old rare varieties on MM111, M26 or M9; even if the grafts 'take', the tree often mysteriously fades away and dies after several years, similar to the way some pears slowly fade away when grafted to Quince A or Quince C.

      Every variety has its own growth rate relative to others. If you planted ten random apple trees on the same rootstock and left them for 15 years, when you came back you might well find that two had reached 12ft, two had only reached 6ft and the other six were about 8-9ft.
      Their growth habits would vary, too, with some being tall and thin like a conifer, some being wide and short like a bush, some being twiggy, some having a sparsely-branched/open habit.
      Last edited by FB.; 26-03-2019, 09:26 AM.
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      • #18
        @FB and nickdub, thanks very much.

        Well I gotta commit to buying something and hope it all turns out for the best. Or fairly decent. 😂

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Lady BlackThumb View Post
          @FB and nickdub, thanks very much.

          Well I gotta commit to buying something and hope it all turns out for the best. Or fairly decent. ��
          No worries - plant trees well and they will certainly grow - I wrote a thread somewhere on here about the basics of tree planting - Happy gardening - Nick

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Lady BlackThumb View Post
            Thanks @bluenowhere @nickdub. It's very helpful indeed.
            I'm looking at sweet varieties like Gala, Fuji, Scrumptious, Katy, Rajka, which from my look see seems to point at average to large/ vigorous types.

            Can anyone share the watering expectations like are for M9/M26, say in the height of summer/active growing season?
            Once established, M9 and M26 can survive droughts with no watering; I know because I had several abandoned M9 or M26 which I removed during the winter.

            However, some scions are more drought-tolerant than others.
            Some scions will drop their fruit before it is ripe. Some will suffer bitter pit or other fruit-breakdown disorders. Some scions are so vigorous that their water demands exceed what a dwarf rootstock can supply, causing the tree to suddenly run out of water, collapse and die.


            Is it a water-every-day-or-they-die kind of situation, or water every couple of days/ if you forget it's not the end of the world scenario? Disclaimer: I did read the other similar rootstock threads on here before
            posting this.
            If neglected, dwarfs will have greatly reduced fruit quality (small, bitter pit etc) or no fruit at all. The scion may also have lowered disease resistance, such as being more prone than expected to canker or mildew.

            Generous watering once a week is probably enough, maybe twice a week during summer droughts. One advantage of dwarf rootstocks is that they're less likely to suffer root-rot from excessive watering than MM106 or larger rootstocks.
            Last edited by FB.; 26-03-2019, 06:57 PM.
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            • #21
              Good to know! Is stuff like mildew/canker/scab something that will happen to apple trees anyway (if listed as average resistance or slightly susceptible), or is it something that happens only when the tree is neglected and not doing well (is: not enough water etc)?

              Counting down the months till apple nursery season is open again... 😂 That'll give me plenty of time to pick precious babies to go in my small garden.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Lady BlackThumb View Post
                Is stuff like mildew/canker/scab something that will happen to apple trees anyway (if listed as average resistance or slightly susceptible), or is it something that happens only when the tree is neglected and not doing well
                Scab, canker, mildew and woolly aphids are widespread across the UK so most trees will be attacked by most of those problems from time to time. Poor growing conditions will stress the trees and make them more prone to disease.
                Sometimes supposedly-susceptible varieties are resistant to the specific strains of disease in certain areas but not in other areas.
                Similarly, sometimes resistant varieties are not resistant in certain areas either due to not liking the soil/climate or a local strain of disease is particularly good at attacking that variety - a common occurrence where a particular variety is widely grown.

                Some examples of not-according-to-the-book disease attacks among my trees:
                I have a Gravenstein. It's supposedly 'slightly susceptible' to most things. Mine was next to a now-dead-from-canker Spartan and a now-dead-from-canker rowan tree and not far from a badly mildewed unidentified apple variety but the Gravenstein remains completely healthy.

                I have a Belle de Boskoop. It's supposedly resistant to canker. It is.....but it isn't. It is resistant to canker in the usual way - autumn infection in leaf scars. It is not resistant to infection where woolly aphids or even normal aphids have caused stem damage.

                I had a Winston. It's supposed to be 'very resistant' to everything but its disease resistance quickly declined after planting and by the time I removed it I wouldn't say it had any special disease resistance.

                I had a Laxton's Superb. It seemed resistant to scab initially, then became fairly susceptible, but after a few years it became fairly resistant again and didn't change.

                I have a Winter Majetin. It doesn't have any official rating for disease resistance. I have never seen any canker, scab, mildew, woolly aphids or anything else on it despite other trees of mine, or nearby, having significant infections. Not that most people would want a Winter Majetin - it's a hard, sour, small-medium greenish cooker that doesn't pick until about November.
                .

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                • #23
                  I've no experience of M26 but if your soil is technically a clay loam M9 might do very well indeed. It seems to find heavy loams OK.

                  FWIW this soil is probably about 40-50% fine sand, 40% silt, 10-20% clay. Have you looked at the soilscapes website to see if your garden is classified as a clay loam? If it is, my hunch would be go for M9. Soilscapes classifies anything from clay to sandy loams as 'loam', it seems.

                  But an exception, heritage varieties like Lord Hindlip, May Queen don't grow big enough on M9 and probably not on M26. I think that Golden Russet is an excellent apple due to its very long keeping but my tree is still tiny whereas for Crispin (triploid) I wish that I could get a slightly dwarfer rootstock than M9.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bluenowhere View Post
                    I’m training espalier fruit trees, top wire about five foot high so I can reach on my allotment. They are Homebase/B&Q trees not fancy year one maidens from nurseries. Although I know the variety and rootstocks and picked tress with side branches in about the right place to train, they may not be classically perfect but I got a small amount of fruit last year, the second year after planting and they look pretty good to my untrained eye and have received positive comments, which I was happy with as I’d be waiting a lot longer for fruit or training if I’d got one year old trees.

                    The root stocks are m26 (Apple) quince A (pear) and st julienne (plum). They grow well to get established, haven’t minded snow or very dry weather even though newly planted and provide plenty of fruiting spurs but they aren’t difficult or arduous to keep under control at least at the moment. I basically just chop off the longer shoots when I notice them in the summer and prune the apple and pear again when dormant as a tidy up to shorten the new fruiting spurs as per my fruit tree book.

                    Should have said I’ve got two trees in about the same space as you have. I’d say if you are espalliering two will be enough, if you cordon you should be able to squeeze in three but obviously there will be more pruning.
                    Hi Bluenowhere,

                    Id love an update on your espaliered plums...Im planning a belgian fence which was going to have 9 trees: 3 plums/gages on St Julien, 3 apples on M9 and 3 Pears on Quince C. (All from Lidl which I got whilst foodshopping during lockdown intermittently over last 2 weeks. Ive built the wire support but Im having doubts about including the plums as some websites seem to say that plums are not suitable for espalier.... are yours still doing well?
                    Any tips appreciated

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by zneil View Post

                      Hi Bluenowhere,

                      Id love an update on your espaliered plums...Im planning a belgian fence which was going to have 9 trees: 3 plums/gages on St Julien, 3 apples on M9 and 3 Pears on Quince C. (All from Lidl which I got whilst foodshopping during lockdown intermittently over last 2 weeks. Ive built the wire support but Im having doubts about including the plums as some websites seem to say that plums are not suitable for espalier.... are yours still doing well?
                      Any tips appreciated
                      The plum is an approximation of a fan trained shape rather than espalier, as that better suits the plum’s way of growing but I keep it to the same amount of space as the espaliers (I didn’t make that very clear in my original post), again keeping the best shoots in the same principle as the Apple/pear espaliers. All doing very well and planted a yellow plum last year to join the Victoria and three further Apple varieties. Just need another pear and that completes my mini orchard.

                      I’ll take a photo or two when I remember!
                      Last edited by Bluenowhere; 26-05-2020, 07:15 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by zneil View Post
                        All from Lidl which I got whilst foodshopping during lockdown intermittently over last 2 weeks
                        ]

                        Zneil - are these bare root plants, Aldi still selling them in late may? I thought the month meant apples were out of dormancy so only potted plants for sale now. I'm keen to pick up a number of cheap apple saplings for grafting experiments so very interested in your post!

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                        • #27
                          I don't know about Aldi but I have seen few pot grown fruit trees at Morrisons for sale recently. From memory (ie of doubtful reliability these days) I think there were both apple and pear trees available at around

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                          • #28
                            Thanks - checked Aldi yesterday, my local one anyway, and they had none, but then checked Morrisons and they did indeed have some. Unfortunately not great trees though for the price -

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