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  • Choosing varieties

    A chum from another forum suggested I join here for advice.


    We're (hopefully) moving in July, to a house where we will have room for quite a few fruit trees. We'd like to be as self-provident for food as we can be, including fruit.

    All that is there ATM are a couple of apples, no idea of variety, they are mature, looking at the trunk and oldest branches, but have been pruned and are fairly diminutive.

    The young bit of the house is 18th century, and enthused by this I'm thinking perhaps I should be looking at heritage varieties, but I also want things we'll really enjoy and, with fruits that can store, ones that will store well, as whole fruit, although I'll process as much as I can.

    I'd be happy to wait and see what the existing apples are, but family friends have suggested we start thinking sooner rather than later about what trees and varieties we want to grow, as they would like to give them as house warming gifts.

    So, I am looking for advice into varieties, or where to get more ideas of varieties of apples, plums (was thinking maybe a yellow, a biggish blueish one, and a greengage?) pears..probably only need one pear, maybe two for variety?, cherries. I'd be interested in peaches too, but they probably need a more sheltered spot, I wonder if the might be better espaliered against a wall? I have a wall that is south facing on a boundary.

    My husband would like some nut trees too.

    what else should we be thinking about? (I doubt we'll get to arranging a fruit cage for soft fruits within a year. )

  • #2
    Plums don't keep, so you won't want more than one or two plum trees, otherwise the fruits will go to waste.
    Most pears need a different variety for pollination and pears are now rare in the UK so you would need to get two different varieies for successful fruiting. Some varieties are partially self-fertile, but the self-pollinated fruits are of lower quality. Many people make the mistake of buying (say) two Comice pear trees. But they are cuttings/grafts from the same mother plant, so they won't cross-pollinate. Not that I recommend Comice as it's very prone to damage from chills and diseases.
    Cherries need netting, otherwise they simply become wild bird food before they're properly ripe - and the birds drop the pips from your rooftop, whcih can mean you can't sit out in the garden because of a hail of pips. The birds may also leave cherry-stained poo all over your washing, rooftop and car.
    Apples are the easiest to grow, but the popular shop-bought varieties are very prone to pests and diseases. You are better to have local varieties, or varieties with good pest and disease resistance.
    Nut trees are not easy. Walnuts can take a long time to produce nuts and grow very large. They also can release chemicals into the soil which damages or kills plants nearby. Fruit trees are said to be particularly sensitive to walnut.
    Almonds will have problems with erratic crops in cool springs and all the peach/almond famil suffer from leaf curl in the UK's damp environment.
    Almonds can also (supposedly) cross-pollinate with peaches/plums/nectarines etc which can taint the flavours.
    Hazels are OK, but once the catkins disappear in February, they're just a mass of large green leaves (nothing special to look at), with the nuts hidden under the leaves.

    I would be careful about letting other people choose the varieties - you will have no control over which varieties you get. Most varieties require regular spray programs to remain healthy and productive. Only the old-fashioned and rare varieties have good pest and disease resistance.

    Think carefully about what you're going to plant, otherwise, I can assure you, it will end in frustration.
    .

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    • #3
      One more thing......

      Fruit trees are usually grafted onto rootstocks, which influence the size of the mature tree. Soil quality makes a big difference, and the variety growing on top would also have an effect.

      So you should consider.....
      How big do you want the trees to grow?
      What kind of topsoil do you have?
      How deep is your topsoil?
      What is your subsoil?
      How much rainfall do you get?
      .

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      • #4
        Sounds a lovely idea. Unfortunatly it's not the best time of year to plant fruit trees as you can only use pot grown ones which cost more and in my experience there is less choice. I'd advise that you prepare a plan and the ground and buy in the dormant season when you'll have an excellent selection of bare root trees and will have had plenty of time to do your research.

        Some of us live in the past, always talking about back then. Some of us live in the future, always planning what we are going to do. And, then there are those, who neither look behind or ahead, but just enjoy the moment of right now.

        Which one are you and is it how you want to be?

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        • #5
          Thanks for the replies

          FB, we have cherries here, about 6-8 of them, and we have found a mixture of using a ''garden eyes'' and cds. lets us get pretty much the full crop. We did this initially for protection of the smaller chickens from local Birds of prey, but the cherries have been a definite huge plus to this!

          With plums I would of course be processing as much of the excess as possible...I think we're more likely to want variety in the quantity IYSWIM

          I totally understand what you say about walnuts. At another house my parents had four mature trees, and I think I saw one walnut once. TBH, I don't find them very handsome trees either. We have almonds here, wih no problem though and had hazels in the past. I think that's more what my husband will want. They can be sited quite a way from any fruit trees in fact, although our almonds are in the orchard here, its good to know this might just have been luck this time!

          In this position space is not going to be a problem. one thing there is a lot of is space. I checked the soil scape map and it lists the land as naturally wet loamy and sandy. Hmm. I'll check this next time there. Its ex grade three agricultural.


          Having control over variety is why I want to ask the questions now, and plan, not receive inappropriate trees as gifts because I never sorted it out.
          Alison, I'm guessing my friend is suggesting they would buy/order now to arrive in season to plant?
          Last edited by lostincybersace; 12-05-2010, 12:30 PM.

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          • #6
            I was in the same position as you a few months ago (it's a great way to waste time choosing what trees to grow!).
            Like you I knew roughly what I wanted so I spent quite a long time looking at the catalogues of nurseries that I knew sold healthy plants. For the basic trees I used Victorianna Nurseries (excellent customer service and the trees have all established well).
            We got 8 trees to start with and will get some more next winter as some of the existing trees in the garden have gone so there will be more room. I will use a local nursery for the next lot to get some species particular to this area.

            Have fun and welcome to the vine!

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            • #7
              I wonder if either of you, or anyone else, can suggest a resource for research into varieties?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by vicky View Post
                I was in the same position as you a few months ago (it's a great way to waste time choosing what trees to grow!).
                Like you I knew roughly what I wanted so I spent quite a long time looking at the catalogues of nurseries that I knew sold healthy plants. For the basic trees I used Victorianna Nurseries (excellent customer service and the trees have all established well).
                We got 8 trees to start with and will get some more next winter as some of the existing trees in the garden have gone so there will be more room. I will use a local nursery for the next lot to get some species particular to this area.

                Have fun and welcome to the vine!

                Thanks, I was typing while your replied! and thanks for the recommendation!

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                • #9
                  Well, if you don't mind hanging things like CD's in your trees, then that's fine. I was under the impression that most people would find it unattractive to do much pro-active protection of their crop in a garden situation.

                  Some nurseries offer container-grown fruit trees that can be ordered and planted during the growing season. However, they are often on semi-vigorous rootstocks (final size about 9ft) and have a trunk of about 3ft, intended to be grown as a bush or half-standard.

                  If you want full size trees, you'd be better to buy "maidens" (unpruned one-year-old trees). These are usually mail-order during the winter.
                  ....and if you want them to grow into full size trees, you'll be needing fairly vigorous rootstocks - a minimum of St.Julien A (plum), Quince A (pear) and MM106 (apple).
                  However, different varieties also grow to different sizes, so that, for example, Marjorie's Seedling (plum) will grow much larger/faster than Victoria even when on the same rootstock......or Hessle (pear) will grow much larger than Concorde.......or Belle de Boskoop (apple) will grow much larger than Court Pendu Plat......or that Cosford (hazel) will grow much larger than Gustav Zeller.

                  I have many fruit and nut trees/bushes. After experimenting and trialling for a number of years, I eventually decided that I would grow the best of the varieties as half or full standards. So here are the varieties that I eventually chose to grow as larger trees:

                  Plum - not suited to my poor/shallow/dry soil. I only have a very small Victoria on St.Julien A.

                  Pear: Concorde, Conference, Hessle, Catillac - all on very deep-rooting and very vigorous rootstocks (equivalent to Pyrus, wild pear or seedling pear).
                  Chosen for more tolerance and regular/reliable crops in the cooler UK growing conditions that cause many pears to fail.

                  Apple: Bountiful, Egremont Russet, Worcester Pearmain, Discovery, James Grieve - all as half-standards on fairly vigorous MM111 rootstock - the variety/rootstock combination being chosen for their ability to thrive in poor soils, harsh climates or droughts. They are somewhat resistant to damage from late frosts during the blossom season.

                  Apple: Annie Elizabeth, D'Arcy Spice, Edward VII, Spartan, Howgate Wonder, Crawley Beauty, Brownlees Russet, Court Pendu Plat, Norfolk Beefing, Belle de Boskoop.
                  All on vigorous M25 rootstock.
                  Mostly chosen for their high levels of disease and pest resistance, combined with the ability to store in a cool garage for several months. Some of them leaf-out and flower exceptionally late which avoids frost damage (the M25 rootstock further delays flowering by a few days but is late to go dormant in the autumn so can be damaged by early frosts). We had a frost a couple of nights ago that may have caused damage to some of my fruit trees, but Edward, Crawley and Court Pendu are only just coming out of dormancy, so their blossoms won't have been damaged.
                  You may find some useful information here:
                  > Clicky link <

                  Of the hazels, I find Gunslebert to be a very heavy and reliable cropper, although the nuts are more "savoury" in flavour than most hazelnuts. If I could grow only one, it'd be Gunslebert.
                  Kent is the best flavoured, but not such a heavy cropper. Gustav Zeller is very slow growing.
                  Cosford tends to have light crops and abnormally vigorous growth that dwarfs its companions. It produces masses of (quite attractive) catkins early in the season (Jan-Feb), so is an excellent pollinator of most other hazels. Pollination is by wind drift - and because of its huge numbers of pollen-producing catkins, I reckon that a single Cosford bush could probably pollinate a whole field of other hazels.
                  .

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                  • #10
                    Thanks FB, thats all fabulous!

                    The cd's I now find to be quite pretty...I know, I know, tastes differ but they through out pretty lights. I tend to think of them now as much like the christmas box, a seasonal decoration which is put out in preparation of an exciting time! FWIW I certainly wouldn't leave them out all summer if it were hot and dry, in case those pretty colours became dangerous in the hot/dry conditions so I hang them in such a way they can be removed at the end of crop (I leave the garden eye's out) .

                    We find the birds steer clear of our ''orchard'' while the cds are out and the smaller birds come back when the cds go, but the garden eye keeps away the birds we don't want. The smaller birds don' go far, just as far as the front garden and side garden where we provide food for them. Obviously this is only really an option in a large garden

                    Thanks for all the suggestions I shall read through them all and check the link! I'm very grateful for your time on this. The person who recommended this site particularly told me to look out for your fruit tree advice!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lostincybersace View Post
                      The person who recommended this site particularly told me to look out for your fruit tree advice!


                      I just updated the apple info a few minutes ago - every season is different and the disease resistance varies a little from one season to another, so I'm regularly making small adjustments to the disease ratings (usually only by one level), to take into account new observations.

                      .

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                      • #12
                        I'm suitably impressed, and some of the varieties I've read about are on your data, e.g. Beauty of Bath, so its interesting to get a ''real'' tested opinion!

                        re Discovery, we have it here, and its a beautiful, beautiful tree with a very beautiful fruit, which is lovely, but I find it turns floury very, very quickly when picked. Is it just me who finds this?

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                        • #13
                          Can I add with plums if you are still thinking of one (or more) Damson are pretty hardy, (although a culinary one.) But there's no jam like damson
                          Also for a sweet treat, how about a gage?
                          Just adding food for thought

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                          • #14
                            Damsons are a good idea TBH I don't like damson much but DH is, so damson jam really ought to be a product from my kitchen!

                            I LOVE greengage's. My parents had one somewhere, but I can't remember much about it.

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                            • #15
                              What bout figs?

                              Any advances on the Brown Turkey variety? Never grown figs (well, I have a small fig in a pot some one left here but its very little and though happy enough doesn't do much), but they are something I can never get enough of. I know you have to contain the roots.....but that is about it!

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