Grow Your Own Magazine

I have to net all my crops because there are pidgeons on my plot, and I never mentioned the use of poison. If I could get away with it without some nancy calling the police, I'd shoot them, because then I could eat them too!

What you call extreme, I call necessary. I don't have a shed, and all my seeds are stored at home. And again, I didn't mention the use of poison at any time, only extermination. You seem to have poison on the brain as the only option.

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Veni, Vidi, Velcro.
I came, I saw, I stuck around.

Hey guys, we're all still friends aren't we?
Its been a good discussion... I wouldn't put poison down if I had a rat, I would re-think what I had done to attract it (as I said earlier in the thread). I too consider cats to be a bigger problem than rats. Personally speaking.

What drives me crazy is the neighbours who put down loaves of bread, which attract pigeons and rats, then the same neighbours ring up the council to complain that THE ALLOTMENTS !!! have rats !!!

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~ What do I think of Western civilisation? I think it would be a very good idea ~ Gandhi

I've read thi thread with interest, and I'm definitely re-thinking my attitude to the whole poisoning thing. I used to put poison down the minute I saw evidence of rats, but I now think there are better ways.

I agree that rats can be discouraged from plots by removing their food source, and if you don't want rats on your plot/garden then turn your compost regularly, keep your shed clean, store all seeds and birdfood in chew-proof tins - so in theory you shouldn't need to put down poison or traps. The trouble is that rats are amazing adaptable and clever creatures, and will find opportunities where we would never consider them. I have chickens and chicks running around in the spring/summer, and rats will help themselves if they find a way. I'd rather not discover that I accidentally left a tiny hole at the back of the run where my broody and her two-day olds are roosting, to come back the next morning and find little dead bodies. I'm not going to use poison escept in places where I could get a trap in, and I think it will be traps from now on.

I do struggle with these issues though - we create habitats just right for slugs, rats, pigeons, and then decide they aren't allowed. They are making the most of an opportunity. The least I can do is make sure that when I have to control a pest, its done in a way that is as quick and pain-free as I can make it.

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Dwell simply ~ love richly

I think this is a really interesting discussion.

It’s made me think a lot about what constitutes a pest. Most people (myself included) would be horrified to exterminate a cat or dog because we’ve all had them as pets - so we know what a lot of personality they have. I’m guessing that anyone who’d had a pet rat would also be horrified at the thought of exterminating them, for the same reasons.

I’ve done a bit of research on this, ‘cos I think it might make a good piece in the mag, and I was surprised to find that our pet dogs spread more diseases in this country than rats. I was also amazed to find that cleaning up dog mess costs this country 23 million pounds a year. (If you Google it, it makes scary reading. Imagine if that money was being spent on new allotment sites!!!).

What’s more, according to the Mammal Society, Britain's 8m domesticated cats (and 1m feral cats) kill up to 300m wild birds and mammals every year. That is about one every 10 days, per cat. So cats affect the crops we get because they massively reduce the number of natural predators (such as birds, frogs, bats and even young hedgehogs) of the pests like slugs, snails and grubs that eat our crops. Yet few people would suggest shooting or poisoning cats, although their mess can also spread diseases.

So I wonder what makes people react so strongly to worries about rats? Certainly our concerns are often disproportionate to the facts. As Beaky pointed out, a lot of people believe that rats were responsible for spreading the plague. But according to The Times, experts now believe that the Black Death is more likely to have been a viral infection, similar to haemorrhagic fever or ebola, that spread from person to person.

Leptospirosis or Weil’s disease (which is associated with rats) affects around 80 people a year in England and Wales. However, a staggering 2% of the population are affected by Toxicara (from dog mess)! There are 100 cases a year of Toxicara affecting children, according to the Environment Commission, and that's a real tragedy. If you asked the average person on the street, they would says rats are a bigger pest than dogs or cats, and rats spread more diseases than dogs.

I have to say I would have said that too, until I looked in to it, but it turns out it isn’t true.

Anyway, I think it makes sense to act responsibly and prevent any animals becoming a problem on our gardens and allotments – and then we won’t need to contemplate daft things like putting poison near our food. It goes to show that prevention is better than cure when it comes to gardening.

And I strongly agree with Birdie Wife. If, despite my best efforts, a situation arose where I did decide to exterminate a rat, or any other pest, then I would only use instant measures.

Posions do more harm than good, there are no ‘safe’ ways to use them, and the only people who benefit are the people who are selling the stuff!

I know a few who would

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~ What do I think of Western civilisation? I think it would be a very good idea ~ Gandhi

I hope so!!! Debates like this always get a bit heated - but there's a lot of sense in the last few posts.

There's certainly much more evidence of cats in my raised beds... Jeannine's statistics would also seem to back this up - in the wild a cat might have a territory of a couple of square miles but who can guess how many domestic cats would inhabit a couple of urban square miles? Several hundred perhaps? It's kind of inspiring that some of our wild birds still manage to survive (the evidence for which is all over my car, which is parked under a tree!).

In this country many people see dogs and cats as pets, cows and sheep as food, rats and pigeons as vermin etc. These are heavily ingrained ideas, but are things really that simple? In some countries rats and dogs are food, in others cows are holy. In France they eat everything... and their food still tastes better than ours. Is that what they mean by egalite I wonder...?

Of course for The Doctor, pigeons are both vermin and food - I'm all for the sustainable option!

We have rats at work (a very large stone quarry) and whilst Leptospirosis is indeed rare it is an illness we are all briefed about. Rats and mice are by their nature doubly incontinent and therefore leave their mess everywhere which is less than pleasant. Their demeanour is very bold and can be quite scarey if you meet one in a service tunnel.

To an extent allotments are "wild areas" in that we encourage some wildlife but restrict other, rats, pigeons and rabbits in the main from our plots. Lets not pretend that our plots are nature reserves in the traditional sense, they are not, their main aim is food production and to help us achieve that we selectively encourage wildlife to asist us.

Rats will always be found where humans are and whilst I agree with Paul Wagland that good housekeeping is essential at keeping them away. They dont manage their environment at all, they are pure opportunitists and move in on any that they come accross. If I had one in my shed it would be trapped and removed. I dont want any of my tools etc being soiled by rodent faeces and urine and certainly not my seats and gloves etc. If I had children visiting my plots I CERTAINLY would not want them lurking about, the risks are too great.

I would want rats on my plots about as much as I would want to poke my eyes out with sharp sticks.

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Kindest regards, David.

http://pigletsplots.blogspot.com/
updated - Sunday 19th at 2100hrs

We have rats at work (a very large stone quarry) and whilst Leptospirosis is indeed rare it is an illness we are all briefed about. Rats and mice are by their nature doubly incontinent and therefore leave their mess everywhere which is less than pleasant. Their demeanour is very bold and can be quite scarey if you meet one in a service tunnel.

To an extent allotments are "wild areas" in that we encourage some wildlife but restrict other, rats, pigeons and rabbits in the main from our plots. Lets not pretend that our plots are nature reserves in the traditional sense, they are not, their main aim is food production and to help us achieve that we selectively encourage wildlife to asist us.

Rats will always be found where humans are and whilst I agree with Paul Wagland that good housekeeping is essential at keeping them away. They dont manage their environment at all, they are pure opportunitists and move in on any that they come accross. If I had one in my shed it would be trapped and removed. I dont want any of my tools etc being soiled by rodent faeces and urine and certainly not my seats and gloves etc. If I had children visiting my plots I CERTAINLY would not want them lurking about, the risks are too great.

I would want rats on my plots about as much as I would want to poke my eyes out with sharp sticks.

__________________
Kindest regards, David.

http://pigletsplots.blogspot.com/
updated - Sunday 19th at 2100hrs

I would add cats and dogs to the list but then I'd really be in trouble!!

I would have to agree with this, PW.

__________________
Veni, Vidi, Velcro.
I came, I saw, I stuck around.

Hi Piglet Willie,

I don't know if you saw my earlier post, but it turns out that children are at considerably greater risk from dog and cat faeces than they are from rats.

Also, like you I'd heard that rats are incontinent, but it turns out that's another myth. Like dogs and cats they urinate to mark their territory, and they choose where to leave their droppings - it only takes a few days to house train a pet rat - some animals never learn!

I certainly don't want to be anti cat or dog here, but I am keen to get the rat debate in perspective and find out more about them. They don't do as much harm as lots of other animals that we are all happy to tolerate, so I'm really curious about why people react so strongly to rats?

In the great scheme of things, with all of the millions of cats and dogs in the UK kept as pets, very few children are infected by toxoplasmosis from cat or dog faeces.

Cats are the prime carrier of the disease but studies of rats at pig farms have concluded that a proportion of rats also carry toxoplasmosis due to their omnivorous and carnivorous feeding habits. The studies were carried out as there was a chance that rats could transmit the disease via pigs into the human food chain

Wild rats are disease carriers full stop.


Parasite and disease load of wild rats on farms in England

Webster and MacDonald (1995) studied the parasite and disease load of wild rats on farms in England:

Helminths (worms):
the oxyuroid pinworm Syphacia muris in 67% of the rats
the strongoloyd parasite Nippostronglyus brasiliensis found in 23%
the liver worm Capillaria in 23%
the cestode Hymenolepsis diminuta in 22%
Toxocara cati causing Toxocariasis in 15%
the oxyuroid pinworm Heterakis spp. in 14%
the cestode Hymenolepsis nana in 11%
the intestinal tapeworm Taenia taeniaeformis in 11%

Bacteria
Leptospira spp. bacteria causing Weil's disease in 14%
Listeria spp. bacteria causing listeriosis in 11%
Yersinia enterocolitica bacteria causing yersiniosis in 11%
Pasturella spp. bacteria causing Pasturellosis in 6%
Pseudomonas spp. bacteria causing Meilioidosis in 4%

Protozoa
Cryptosporidium parvum causing cryptosporidiosis in 63% of the rats
Toxoplasma gondii causing toxoplasmosis in 35%
Trypanosoma lewisii in 29%
Eimeria separata in 8%
Rickettsia
Coxiella burnetti evidence of infection by Q fever in 34%

Viruses
Hantavirus causing Hantaan-fever or hemorrhagic fever in 5%
Ectoparasites (note: these ectoparasites are vectors for diseases which are transmissible to humans, such as typhus)

Fleas found on 100% of the rats
Mites found on 67%
Lice found on 38%

If you want to tolerate them in your shed Jeanine thats your choice but they aren't living in mine. The above is a good indicator why people react so strongly to rats.

__________________
Kindest regards, David.

http://pigletsplots.blogspot.com/
updated - Sunday 19th at 2100hrs

I think Jeannine's point is that all animals carry disease.... and the statistics she quoted earlier in the thread suggested far more people contract diseases from cats and dogs than from wild rats (even though rats are many times more numerous).

What's becoming pretty clear is that some people have an aversion to rats in particular, even when there is no evidence that they are more harmful than a pet cat or dog. Lots of people are scared of spiders, but should we try and kill every spider we see?

And rats are certainly not incontinent! That's an old wives' tale. My rats are completely house trained and I'll send 'em up yer trouser leg if you say different!!!

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Resistance is fertile

All I can say in reply Paul is

"is that a rat up your trouser leg or are you just pleased to see me"

boom boom

__________________
Kindest regards, David.

http://pigletsplots.blogspot.com/
updated - Sunday 19th at 2100hrs

I think if you check your facts again you wil find that cats carry more toxacara than dogs and foxes are also a carrier so not all problems can be blamed on dogs,

I suppose we humans also carry and spread a lot of disease.Nature's way of keeping the growth of species in check and ensuring only the fit survive?

Cats are the host of choice, but any gut will do.

__________________
Kindest regards, David.

http://pigletsplots.blogspot.com/
updated - Sunday 19th at 2100hrs

Hi PaulW,

the report I was quoting from was from the Environment Commission and they clearly stated that dogs are a huge problem when it comes to spreading toxacara, but perhaps they are biased as I think they are the body that clears up the dog mess!!

I wonder if there is more than one sort of toxacara as they specifically refer to toxacara canis affecting 100 people a year. (I'm guessing the 'canis' bit refers to canines- but feel please let me know if you have more info!).

To quote them:
"The health issues are associated with the presence of the eggs of the parasitic worm toxicara canis in the faeces of dogs. ENCAMS found that 54% of dog owners neither bought nor used worming tablets on their pets and a single deposit of dog faeces can contain 1 million eggs."

Yuggh! Again it sounds like prevention is better than cure - I'm sure worming tablets arent all that expensive!

Anyway, I don't know if I made it very clear in my post, but I did mention that cat mess also causes toxacara. However, I certainly haven't heard that cats do more damage in that regard that dogs. Where did you hear about that? I'd be very interested to find out more about it.

I'm personally very fond of both dogs and cats, but as a gardener I wouldn't have a pet cat as I get enough grief with the neighbours' mogs digging up my seedlings and messing on my raised beds.

Has anyone found any (cruelty free) ways to keep cats off their plots? Does tiger poo really work? (There's a big zoo near us). Or will that carry even more disease?

The fully-grown adult roundworm is similar in appearance to the common earthworm, though white and built on a smaller scale. The commonest roundworm found in the cat is toxocara cati which in a study in london, was show to infect on average 28 per cent of cats,though in ferals and kittens under six months, the figure was almost 50 per cent. Another roundworm, toxacaris leonina, is much less common, infecting up to 5-5 per cent of cats.
The eggs have a sticky surface and may stick to a cat`s paw while walking or digging in the soil. They hatch in the stomach and the resultant larvae migrate through the liver and lungs to the trachea where they are coughed up and swallowed. When they reach the gut again, they undergo a final moult and the adult worm begins to lay eggs.
An alternative method of transmission of toxocara cati is that the eggs are swallowed by a rodent, bird or mollusc. In these abnormal hosts, they form cysts with in the tissues, commonly the liver. If the pray animal is eaten by the cat, the cysts are digested and the larvae emerge. The larvae emerging from the paratenic host (rodent/mollusc/bird) or consumed in the queens milk undergo limited migration in the gut before completing the life cycle in the gut. A final method of infection is that the kittens may receive eggs along with queens milk.

That's incredible, thanks PaulW! In a way it's fascinating to see the extents that parasites go to just to get a good meal, but that's made me even more keen to try to stop cats messing on my veg beds!!!

So there are various sorts of toxocara. If 2% of the adult population are affected by toxocara canis (according to the Environment Commission) and if, as you say, cats spread even more toxocara than dogs do, then it seems even more unfair that we all go on about rats being dirty and spreading disease all the time. However, I notice that a lot of the media scaremongering about rats is in response to figures put out by the people who stand to make money from exterminating rats.

I'm not saying rats don't spread disease, obviously they do (though not the plague as we used to believe) - and even 80 cases of Weils a year are 80 too many. However, it seems clear that our violent reaction to rats is disproportionate to the reaction we have to other animals which we don't think of as dirty, although they are spreading a lot more disease, and pose a greater risk to our health and our childrens' health.

Anyway the good news is that you can't catch toxacara from fresh poo, only the stuff that's 3 weeks old, so cleaning up right away after dogs and cats is the key.
That's if you spot it in time

There is the potential to sort out the worms in pet dogs & cats however - my dog & cat are regularly wormed, and I always clean up after the dog. I wouldn't much fancy trying to catch wild rats/mice to give them a worm tablet Although owning a cat does mean that we don't really have a problem with them either