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  • carrots-organic/non organic from the supermarket

    mostly i eat things in season, preferably when iv grown them but there are 2 things i cant go without, tomatos and carrots. i tend to buy organic but recently iv noticed that the non organic carrots from all 3 supermarkets i go to taste much nicer. theres no variety on either so i cant compair that but they really are much much nicer. i wander why as it is the same everyhwer

  • #2
    I think taste is derived from the variety rather than if they are organic or not?

    Naturally, to combat the move towards organic produce, non organic growers will be exploring using tastier varieties of vegetables to try and woo the customers back!
    My Majesty made for him a garden anew in order
    to present to him vegetables and all beautiful flowers.- Offerings of Thutmose III to Amon-Ra (1500 BCE)

    Diversify & prosper


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    • #3
      the other thing iv found is sainsburys organic carrots tend to be huge and woody. in a 500g bag you might get 5 or 6 carrots.

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      • #4
        Some of it is on type but also on how they've been stored etc. Personally I've never found decent tasting veg in supermarkets and carrots can be particularly bad. If you want good ones then your best bet is to get them from a farm shop / market with a good coating of mud. Tend to be much fresher and without the food miles of a lot of supermarket ones.

        Some of us live in the past, always talking about back then. Some of us live in the future, always planning what we are going to do. And, then there are those, who neither look behind or ahead, but just enjoy the moment of right now.

        Which one are you and is it how you want to be?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Alison View Post
          Some of it is on type but also on how they've been stored etc. Personally I've never found decent tasting veg in supermarkets and carrots can be particularly bad. If you want good ones then your best bet is to get them from a farm shop / market with a good coating of mud. Tend to be much fresher and without the food miles of a lot of supermarket ones.
          Or better still, get them from your garden or allotment!
          My Majesty made for him a garden anew in order
          to present to him vegetables and all beautiful flowers.- Offerings of Thutmose III to Amon-Ra (1500 BCE)

          Diversify & prosper


          Comment


          • #6
            All my own carrots are sold and I am buying in organic carrots for my box scheme. I have the option of washed or dirty, and so I gave the same option to my customers - almost to a man / woman / child / alien they opted for washed, yet when I go to the local farmers market, those self same people want dirty carrots !
            On the subject of varieties, non-organic seed is available in a much wider selection of varieties than organic, and organic varieties are those which tend to have greater resistance to pests and disease "built in", so these all have an effect on taste.
            As for dirty carrots being fresher, not so. Mine are washed the day before delivery and are pulled from the store that the dirty carrots are bagged from. They are not fresher, but if you mean that they will keep longer with a coating of mud on them, then I agree. But don't confuse the two. It's the same sort of argument as do you want organic or less food miles ? Nether is right or wrong, it's down to personal choice.
            Last edited by sewer rat; 19-11-2007, 07:04 PM.
            Rat

            British by birth
            Scottish by the Grace of God

            http://scotsburngarden.blogspot.com/
            http://davethegardener.blogspot.com/

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            • #7
              An honest query here mainly aimed at Sewer Rat methinks! For a vegetable to be classed as organically grown does it need to be grown from an organically produced seed?

              Sorry to hijack the thread a bit folks!
              My Majesty made for him a garden anew in order
              to present to him vegetables and all beautiful flowers.- Offerings of Thutmose III to Amon-Ra (1500 BCE)

              Diversify & prosper


              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Snadger View Post
                An honest query here mainly aimed at Sewer Rat methinks! For a vegetable to be classed as organically grown does it need to be grown from an organically produced seed?

                Sorry to hijack the thread a bit folks!
                If it is to comply with organic certification it does indeed need to be grown from organically certified seed. Whereas this does not really impact on gardeners or even allotmenteers (except the most avid organic enthusiasts) it certainly impacts on commercial growers as the sources of organic seed, especially in commercial quantities,although increasing in number are still fairly limited. And surprisingly, organic seed is not always more expensive than non-organic, though as a rule of thumb, you should expect to pay more in general for organic seed.
                You also cut quite considerably, the number of varieties available to you.
                Rat

                British by birth
                Scottish by the Grace of God

                http://scotsburngarden.blogspot.com/
                http://davethegardener.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  im only finding this now though i must add, didnt have the problem through the summer. i tried to grow my own carrots believe me, they grew well at the allotment on my clayish soil but were very woody and inedible really, that aside i had a huge amount of slug and woodlice damage to them. i grew the same varieties in a bucket at home and they were lovely but tiny and didnt last long. my soil at home is very sandy so i would have thought good for carrots but no such luck. im going to try sowing indoors and transplanting them next year because for the quantity i eat i really should be able to grow some.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sewer rat View Post
                    If it is to comply with organic certification it does indeed need to be grown from organically certified seed. Whereas this does not really impact on gardeners or even allotmenteers (except the most avid organic enthusiasts) it certainly impacts on commercial growers as the sources of organic seed, especially in commercial quantities,although increasing in number are still fairly limited. And surprisingly, organic seed is not always more expensive than non-organic, though as a rule of thumb, you should expect to pay more in general for organic seed.
                    You also cut quite considerably, the number of varieties available to you.

                    Rat, this isn't entirely true, and to some extent depends on the certification body (there are many, the Soil Asociation is just the most well known). I am aware that many commercial organic growers are allowed to use non-organic, untreated seed if the variety they want is not available organically, which lets face it, many aren't.

                    I may be doing the seed trade a slight disservice here (oops!) but as i see it it is significantly harder to produce organic seed, based on the assumption that the crops are harder to keep free of pest and disease, the fertiliser inputs are restricted, and therefore the quality of the seed is much reduced, not to mention the yield of seed, which in some cases makes it more expensive. Add to this the next seed crop grown from the poor quality seed from last harvest and the cycle repeats itself. Also bear i mind that these seeds crops are not always grown in the UK, in fact most are grown abroad so that the harvest of the seed coincides with when growers need to order/sow it so that it is fresh, plus other climates may be more suitable for growing seed crops. organic regulations vary from one country to another (although there is a EU standard), so the 'organic-ness' of a seed crop (and also a finished vegetable) is not always what you would expect if you read the Soil Associations website.

                    I seem to lost the point of my reply....oh yes - organic seed, to be honest you don't really need to use organic seed to grow organically, in fact, in my opinion you would be better not to - healthier, more vigorous crops need less inputs. If you start with top quality seed you're less likely to run into problems, regardless of whether you are a cpommercial grower, market gardener or GYO'er
                    There's vegetable growing in the family, but I must be adopted
                    Happy Gardening!

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                    • #11
                      I suppose if you want to be fully organic by the third year (some plants are biennials and won't set seed until the second year) from a standing start you could grow all your own plants (probably heritage varieties)organically and harvest all your own seeds.
                      Personally I find the seed saving aspect of gardening the most interesting part and have a mission for the future of saving seed of everything and not having to buy any seeds! I'm a long way off that vision at present, but it's certainly something to aim for for the future!

                      Now what did this thead start life as again..........oh yes carrots..............
                      My Majesty made for him a garden anew in order
                      to present to him vegetables and all beautiful flowers.- Offerings of Thutmose III to Amon-Ra (1500 BCE)

                      Diversify & prosper


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Protea View Post
                        Rat, this isn't entirely true, and to some extent depends on the certification body (there are many, the Soil Asociation is just the most well known). I am aware that many commercial organic growers are allowed to use non-organic, untreated seed if the variety they want is not available organically, which lets face it, many aren't.

                        I may be doing the seed trade a slight disservice here (oops!) but as i see it it is significantly harder to produce organic seed, based on the assumption that the crops are harder to keep free of pest and disease, the fertiliser inputs are restricted, and therefore the quality of the seed is much reduced, not to mention the yield of seed, which in some cases makes it more expensive. Add to this the next seed crop grown from the poor quality seed from last harvest and the cycle repeats itself. Also bear i mind that these seeds crops are not always grown in the UK, in fact most are grown abroad so that the harvest of the seed coincides with when growers need to order/sow it so that it is fresh, plus other climates may be more suitable for growing seed crops. organic regulations vary from one country to another (although there is a EU standard), so the 'organic-ness' of a seed crop (and also a finished vegetable) is not always what you would expect if you read the Soil Associations website.

                        I seem to lost the point of my reply....oh yes - organic seed, to be honest you don't really need to use organic seed to grow organically, in fact, in my opinion you would be better not to - healthier, more vigorous crops need less inputs. If you start with top quality seed you're less likely to run into problems, regardless of whether you are a cpommercial grower, market gardener or GYO'er
                        I understand some of what you are saying but don't get the point that organic seeds would be of a lower quality, surely by that arguement, the crop would be inferior which is not the case - yes I know theh point about different varieties etc but that didn't seem to be the issue here, can you explain more as I'm confused by the logic!?!

                        Some of us live in the past, always talking about back then. Some of us live in the future, always planning what we are going to do. And, then there are those, who neither look behind or ahead, but just enjoy the moment of right now.

                        Which one are you and is it how you want to be?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I take on board the points you make but as you say certain certification bodies though not all require the use of organic seed.
                          As for varities available, you say that if the variety you wish to grow is not available, then non-organic seed for your chosen variety can be used. Again this is a matter of choice for the grower and the certification bodies again differ on whether you can just grow any variety or you should select an available organic variety with similar traits to your original choice.
                          It really is a minefield.
                          As you say, the Soil Association is only one of about twenty or so certification bodies in the UK, but it is by far the largest. Here I quote from their own website
                          "The OrganicXseeds online database is designed to help organic producers search for organic seeds, vegetative propagation material and seed potatoes. Organic certification bodies also use the website to authorize derogations, while seed companies can advertise their certified organic seed.

                          If you search the database and find the varieties that you need are not available, you must get permission from your certification body before purchasing non organic seed. "

                          Makes it sound simple - it ain't
                          Last edited by sewer rat; 20-11-2007, 10:24 PM.
                          Rat

                          British by birth
                          Scottish by the Grace of God

                          http://scotsburngarden.blogspot.com/
                          http://davethegardener.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Alison View Post
                            I understand some of what you are saying but don't get the point that organic seeds would be of a lower quality, surely by that arguement, the crop would be inferior which is not the case - yes I know theh point about different varieties etc but that didn't seem to be the issue here, can you explain more as I'm confused by the logic!?!
                            Ok, i'll try to explain my point (bear with me!)

                            If you are growing a seed crop specifically (rather than to eat the produce), the crop is growing for a much longer time than we would realise (Parsnips for example take 2 years to seed harvest, carrots and many other umbellifers similarly). Therefore, if you are growing the seed crop organically (and depending on which certification body you are wanting it to be certified by) you will have a limited range of pesticides at your disposal, to deal with insects, fungi, weeds etc. As the crop is growing for a longer period of time it will more than likely fall prey to either insect or fungi/bacteris/virus attack, or probably both at some point in time (and there will definatly be competition from weeds becasue of lack of herbicides). The plant will then be under stress, and if attacked by certain bacteria, virus and some fungi, the disease may be spread in the seed to future crops. Not only that, but the quantity of seed is likely to be reduced (plant doesn't produce so much when fighting off pests/diseases) and may be of reduced quality (smaller size, not as uniform, lower germination rate etc.), this will inevitably be passed on to the next crop, but not necessarily result in an inferior crop (end product), it may just have a lower germination rate and require more seed to be sown in compensation.

                            Now, i'm referring to modern varieties here, not heritage varieties which will respond by slight mutations and normal natural selection. It is probably becasue of some of the points above that not many organic varieteis available are F1 hybrids, maybe due to the dificulty in keeping the vast number of plants required healthy for such a long period of time without pesticides, or more likely the expense of creating hybrid seed crops for such a small market. (I'm not going to go into the F1 debate here, i'm just stating that according to our catalogue we have very few F1 hybrids for organics). But is is not restricted to F1 hybrids, most modern open pollinated varieties will suffer from the same problems to a greater or lesser degree, depending on how far away from the wild form they have been bred.

                            I hope this answers your question, and i'm not saying that what i've written is correct. I may work for a seed breeding company but i'm not a plant genetecist so this is just my own point of view! (although i do know a bit about pest and disease as this is my area).
                            There's vegetable growing in the family, but I must be adopted
                            Happy Gardening!

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                            • #15
                              Hi Protea

                              To further complicate the situation, what or who dictate that a variety is a Heritage variety and will a modern variety eventually become a heritage variety?
                              I always thought that any variety that wasn't an F1 or F2 etc and was open pollinated, and came true from seed was a Heritage variety?

                              If a heritage or modern variety is grown organically for seed, without inorganic fertilisers,weedkilllers and fungiscides will this not make it a stronger variety, easier to be grown organically in the future?
                              Organic seed will naturally be more expensive than inorganic seed because of the extra work involved in hand weeding, applying muck and generally more 'hands on' attention, but I would have thought the quality would have been superior?

                              Hmmmm......Interesting!
                              My Majesty made for him a garden anew in order
                              to present to him vegetables and all beautiful flowers.- Offerings of Thutmose III to Amon-Ra (1500 BCE)

                              Diversify & prosper


                              Comment

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