What is permaculture about??

**Jay-ell** · 27-01-2015, 05:23 PM

Well I find it a bit hard to wrap my head around around permaculture. It seems to have grown from being permanent agriculture to a holistic approach on life and not just the garden.

From the gardening side of things it seems to relate to a more natural way of gardening - no dig, use of perennial vegetables, self sowing annual veg/herbs, using a range of plants to do different jobs in the garden(eg nitrogen fixing, wildlife attractions, nutrient accumulation. Some of these are already used in standard allotment gardening.

Martin Crawford has two good books called "Creating a forest garden" and "Perennial Vegetables" which I believe you can download samples for Amazon Kindle. The author says that these aren't permaculture on their own but I'm looking forward to the opportunity to put some of the information to good use.

**Kirk** · 27-01-2015, 05:31 PM

Seems to be growing at different levels, or harvesting from different levels. With the proviso that they are all effectively growing at the same place or area.

So trees for the high bit, say nuts as the crop, lower blackberries, below that cannot think of anything and then possible ground and root crops.

Think there is seven levels however a lot depends on where a level starts/ends. Apple trees were high cropping but an M9 rootstock throws that now.

I suspect the arguement is you have several cropping layers, the bit not mentioned is that I guess none are exactly heavy cropping. Was a program that covered a family with a "permaculture" setup/area, they still went to the supermarket however for quite a bit of stuff.

I tend to be a bit sceptical as if they work so well why do we not grow food that way as standard.

But the idea is I think best described as multi layer. Companion planting is a more often used gardening approach (think I may have that name wrong). Yes, got it wrong, try The Three Sisters Garden method. A sort of "simplified" idea.

**Jay-ell** · 27-01-2015, 06:02 PM

Off the top of my head the layers are

Canopy - taller trees
Under canopy - shorter trees
Shrub
Herbaceous plants
Ground cover
Root crops
Vines

and in some models fungi

Fruit and nut trees go into the canopy/under canopy and depending on the trees there may not be a top canopy.

Currents, gooseberries and other similar crops are the shrubs.

Herbaceous/ ground cover aren't as easy to separate from each other. The way I think of them is herbaceous are more clumps eg perennial kales, udo and comfrey with ground cover being plants that can quickly carpet an area e.g strawberries.

Roots well I think that speaks for itself and vines referring to things like hops and kiwis that grow up the trees rather than sprawl along the ground.

I've read claims that it's less work but I think that the work will just be shifted to harvesting rather than weeding. As for productivity it seems to focus on diversity of crops rather than large harvests of a smaller range of plants, number of varieties quoted are often 100+.

**Thelma Sanders** · 27-01-2015, 07:02 PM

I suspect that harvests are lower because of the competition for light and soil nutrients.
and water now I think about it

I remember how much I had to water the bed I had under a cherry tree

**arpoet** · 27-01-2015, 07:16 PM

Its all to confusing for me. Same with lunar planting and some companion plants. I am at an age where Keep it Simple is my my buzz phrase.

**Jay-ell** · 27-01-2015, 07:17 PM

Another reason for lower harvests is the fact that in a regular row based annual vegetable garden you grow varieties bred to give their all in the first year. In the layered garden the plants haven't been selected and nred for productivity amd several of them would be classed as weeds in the row garden.

You would grow and eat a range of plants which you may not have considered as food.

**veggiechicken** · 27-01-2015, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by john9159 View Post

Making a statement such as "permaculture is designed to work in harmony with nature" is both pointless and unhelpful.

There are lots of different aspects to permaculture - its an attitude of mind, in a way.
You work with what you have, not try to fight against it. So, for example, if you have a boggy area of garden, you don't try to level and drain it, you create a pond there (thus working in harmony with nature).
If you have shady areas you plant shade loving plants, those that would thrive in a wood. If you plant sun lovers there, you know they'll not perform well, so accept the shade and work with it.

A lot of it is commonsense, probably things that you do without even thinking about it.

As has been said, Permaculture derives from permanent and agriculture. Planting for minimal maintenance. For example, why grow lettuce that has to be resown each time you pick one, when you can find other leaves from a perennial plant that can be eaten in a salad.
Grow perennial, bunching onions as Spring onions substitutes.

**Jay-ell** · 27-01-2015, 08:32 PM

It's the alternative plants that interest me. Rather than sowing each year you plant perennial leeks, kale, broccoli, rocket etc or you sow an annual plant once and let it reared itself every year.

It does involve getting equivalent plants by their usage - thought of replacing lettuce with a tree? Lime leaves can be used as a base to a salad.

You loose control over a neat orderly plot but save time sowing an weeding. Of course harvesting becomes less straight forward as crops may be scatteded around the place or you have to stretch squeeze and wiggle past one crop to get to another.

With competition for resources, part of the planning is to grow plants that harvest unavaiiable nutrients and make them available to others through leaf decay, hebaceous die back, nutrient leakage

although there is competition for water, as there is more shade the soil moisture doesn't evaporate as much and correct plant selection (either by you or by the plants themselves) will get a balance with the shade.

**john9159** · 27-01-2015, 09:53 PM

Well that has opened my eyes to a larger extent.
The reason I asked the question is because two people have expressed an interest in taking on a plot at my allotments. Before I see the prospective tenants, I wanted your take on the subject.
I am sceptical too about the relevance of such an undertaking on an allotment site particularly as we are expected to work against naure to a large extent i.e. banish slugs/snails, dig up and destroy weeds, no planting of non-fruit bearing trees, dig over the soil regularly to prevent pests and diseases etc etc.
I shall be testing the applicants to see what their plans are and will report back when appropriate.
Once again thanks for the time you have taken in answering.

**Bohobumble** · 27-01-2015, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by john9159 View Post

All I can find are links to organisations offering courses or subscriptions to magazines whilst not informing people what it is about.
Making a statement such as "permaculture is designed to work in harmony with nature" is both pointless and unhelpful.

So, does anyone here actually practice permaculture and how precisely does it work when compared to traditional growing methods involving crop rotation (which apparently permaculture does not adhere to)?

Why would the folks making money running courses and selling books/magazines tell you how it works for free?

I worked on a permaculture farm in Australia for a while a couple of years ago now, on the face of it, it's about reducing waste, using resources wisely, working with rather than against nature, reusing and diversity of habitats/crops.

If you're already growing organically and using companion planting, dabbled with lasagne gardening etc then you're half way there, it's different things for different people, in different locations.

Two guys wrote some books on it then squabbled over the rights to the name.

This sums up the basics pretty well: Permaculture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. If you want to spend bit of money on books and courses, then go for it, you'll learn lots of jazzy concepts, you'll learn a few things here and there too, and if living to the principles of Permaculture helps to create less reliance on intensive farming then that's great.

**Jay-ell** · 27-01-2015, 10:08 PM

I'm not saying that it wouldn't work on an allotment. Forest gardning mentioned above is one way permacuture works, but it probably not the only way.

have a browse around this site https://scottishforestgarden.wordpress.com/ to see how it's been done on an allotment.

or this thread
http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gra...ist_64325.html
for ideas on perennial veg

It wouldn't be like any other plot but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be good.

**muddled** · 27-01-2015, 11:44 PM

This chap posts a free series of videos online.
He's very good, explains lots and shows examples of permaculture from around the world.
You put an e-mail address in and you get e-mailed a link (a defence against spammers) and then you can watch as many or as few videos as you like.

Geoff Lawton
(this link takes you straight there)

For me, permaculture is a way of designing a plot so I can working smarter instead of harder.
I live with increasing disability but desperately want to maintain my allotment.
Instead of carrying water round my plot, put the butt a bit higher and let gravity carry it,
Have the chickens scratch over empty beds for weed seeds and slug eggs,
compost 'in situ' with the chop and drop method for mulch and soil improvement...
This sort of design adjustment, multplied across a plot can make it possible for people like me to continue gardening.

**alldigging** · 28-01-2015, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by john9159 View Post

Well that has opened my eyes to a larger extent.
The reason I asked the question is because two people have expressed an interest in taking on a plot at my allotments. Before I see the prospective tenants, I wanted your take on the subject..

They may not "allotment" in any sort of traditional way.

You should clarify what your allotment rules on cultivation expect of plot holders.

Permaculture usually entails trees - something many allotment sites ban.
Most areas I have seen are much more unstructured than allotments should be.

**veggiechicken** · 28-01-2015, 09:41 AM

Permaculture doesn't mean Forest gardening. You can use Permaculture principles in anywhere, even in pots. Permaculture In Pots - How To Grow Food in Small Urban Spaces | Permaculture Magazine

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What is permaculture about??

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