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  • #1

    Veg plus fruit tree in a small space

    I have a tiny plot in a community garden project: one half of a 180cm (6ft) square planter. I'm growing veg using the Square Foot method. This week, the couple who have the other half of the planter have put in a ballerina apple tree, right in the middle of their half. Apparently it had outgrown its large pot, but they don't think it will spread much in the planter. It seems crazy to me to put a tree, even a small one, into such a tiny contained space where we're also trying to grow vegetables. But I'm not a very experienced gardener - am I just making a fuss about nothing?
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  • #2
    Originally posted by Greena View Post
    am I just making a fuss about nothing?

    I don't think they will be very good companions in a small space ... perhaps put a vertical divider in the container to separate the veg compost from the fruit tree compost, so that the tree roots don't spread and steal all the moisture. I would also turn the container round so that the tree was on the North side - so it didn't cast any shadow over the lower-down vegetables.
    K's Garden blog the story of the creation of our garden

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    • #3
      In just a quick online search, I found the eventual size of a ballerina could be 18ft x 18ft.

      So, it's going to take over the whole container. It's not, imo, the best use of such a tiny space, to just grow one crop.

      Check your tenancy agreement: there might be a rule banning permanent (perennial) plants & trees
      All gardeners know better than other gardeners." -- Chinese Proverb.

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      • #4
        No you are not fussing for nothing. Yes you do get trees on dwarf rootstock so they grow to 1-1.5m but you still need a reasonable size root system to support this.Are the other people planning on training it (cordon, espalier etc.) or leaving it to its own. You say it is right in the middle (that is just plain wrong and inconsiderate IMO)



        I have attached a pic of a tree I had 1m tall let to do its own thing. (The tree was 20 odd years old to be at that stage) I can not see how you will get good veg growing results under that.

        Oh and welcome to the vine
        Last edited by Norfolkgrey; 27-11-2014, 12:05 PM.

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        • #5
          If the tree has 'outgrown it's pot' as they say, surely this is evidence that it will NOT stay within their half of the planter but spread to your half (and quickly).
          I think they must either be very stupid or (more likely) right liberty takers.
          To put a tree in a shared small planter is totally unacceptable.
          http://goneplotterin.blogspot.co.uk/

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          • #6
            Welcome to the vine, Greena

            Originally posted by muddled View Post
            If the tree has 'outgrown it's pot' as they say, surely this is evidence that it will NOT stay within their half of the planter but spread to your half (and quickly)...To put a tree in a shared small planter is totally unacceptable.
            I totally agree. If it's in the middle of their half, its roots right now are only a foot away from your half. Do the owners believe their tree will keep all its roots on their side? Check your tenancy agreement. If planting a fruit tree is allowed, then see if you can move to another planter. If you can't, then plant a fig.
            Location - Leicestershire - Chisit-land
            Endless wonder.

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            • #7
              Gosh...sorry

              I was so quick to jump on my soapbox I completely missed that this was your first post!

              Hello Greena, welcome to the vine
              http://goneplotterin.blogspot.co.uk/

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              • #8
                Thanks!

                Thanks for all these helpful replies (and the welcome!). The garden is new this year and has been organised very informally, and so far we don't really have any rules or tenancy agreements etc. Now that I know I'm right to be concerned, I'll contact the tree planters (who I've never met) and try to find a diplomatic solution... Failing that, I have the south side of the box so a fig might just do the trick!!

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                • #9
                  update

                  So... I emailed the tree planters and they have replied to say that they want to put in a "geotextile barrier" between the two halves of the planter, to keep the tree roots out of my half. Is anyone familiar with this? I wonder how they plan to install it without digging everything up (e.g. my Brussels sprouts close to the dividing line...), but in theory will it work?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Greena View Post
                    So... I emailed the tree planters and they have replied to say that they want to put in a "geotextile barrier" between the two halves of the planter, to keep the tree roots out of my half. Is anyone familiar with this? I wonder how they plan to install it without digging everything up (e.g. my Brussels sprouts close to the dividing line...), but in theory will it work?

                    Nah course it won't long term. And when their tree sucks all the nutrients and water from your bed too then you won't be able to do anything without chopping roots off.

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                    • #11
                      Now that I have calmed down since my last post and learnt some more about fruit trees . From having a read, the more common rootstock for ballerina trees seems to be mm106 a semi vig. rootstock. (with a ballerina you don't have the spread/width of the top growth - you still have the root spread )

                      Name of rootstock: MM106 (semi-dwarfing)
                      Suitable for: All forms except standards
                      Start fruiting: After three or four years
                      Ultimate height as trained as bush: 3-4m (10-13ft) x 4m (13ft)
                      Growing conditions: Tolerant of a range of soils including grassed orchards and poor soils. The most widely used rootstock, but unsuitable for small gardens.
                      Staking: 5 years; longer in exposed locations
                      Spacing: 3.6 (12ft) with 4.5m (15ft) between the rows                       (taken from https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=359 )

                      I have seen buddlejia roots break/lift concrete, why anyone would think a 'geotextile barrier' will stop tree roots is beyond me. Having said that I just a natter with someone who says they use washing machine drums to restrict main roots of fig trees but still allows feeder/smaller roots through.

                      It doesn't really matter what I say or jabber on about. If they don't remove it they are taking the piddle.
                      Last edited by Norfolkgrey; 01-12-2014, 05:18 PM.

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                      • #12
                        How about putting a solid divider in? - a piece of perspex or something like that
                        K's Garden blog the story of the creation of our garden

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                        • #13
                          Dandelions can make it through a textile barrier, forget trees.

                          Textile can work on a surface when it stops things germinating or getting light, sticking it sideways in the ground isn't going to stop tree roots growing through.

                          It's tricky if you don't went to fall out over it though, it sounds like the only way they'll realise they're wrong is by demonstrating.
                          My spiffy new lottie blog

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                          • #14
                            Hmm... The tree planters have grudgingly agreed to remove their tree, although it was meant to happen this weekend and didn't. I think they have some family stuff going on at the moment so I'll be patient - am assuming there won't be too much growth in this cold weather. Thanks again, everyone, for your advice and encouragement!

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                            • #15
                              It's gone!

                              The tree has been removed at last! And we are now forming a committee and writing up rules for the garden, including a rule about trees...

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