Grow Your Own Magazine

well obviously its not completely green but it is greener than buying non organic food that is air freighted over. Though of course ideally as has been said, we would all buy local organic.

You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink! People can't be forced to shop green or organic or both. We live in a democracy and are free to do as we please!

I think we each have to shop according to our own beliefs and budgets and be tolerant of others.

Surely if we grow our own these ethical food debates will become less and less relevant to ourselves anyway?

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My Majesty made for him a garden anew in order
to present to him vegetables and all beautiful flowers.- Offerings of Thutmose III to Amon-Ra (1500 BCE)

I didn't realise how much choice I had until I started looking around, since then I've found numberous farmers shops, markets, small scale shops and box schemes open to me. Prior to this I used to moan that there was nothing about as if I acutally expected people to come to me. Yes, it takes a bit more effort in the first place but not now I'm used to it. I now eat by picking what looks the freshest and then deciding how to cook it rather than starting with the recipe book and looking for the ingredients to fit. As a result I actually eat a wider range of foods and feel better for it.

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Some of us live in the past, always talking about back then. Some of us live in the future, always planning what we are going to do. And, then there are those, who neither look behind or ahead, but just enjoy the moment of right now.

Which one are you and is it how you want to be?

I have never thought of myself as either green or organic, just concerned for the environment and planet on which I live as well as for my own, and my loved ones, health and happiness. I can't stand the idea of all those airmiles, especially for things like runner beans which so easily grow in the UK. organic in the sense of no chemicals used to grow the veg, but what about the chemicals produced during their packing and transportation? I breath the air polluted by the planes which fly them in and have to watch local farmers struggling because nobody wants their fresh, misshapen veg when they can buy pretty, identically shaped veg from tesco in lovely colourful packaging (sarcasm here folks before you shoot me down in flames!). I'm not perfect by any means but hopefully getting better all the time - I totally agree with teh posts above that we need to educate everyone - it IS possible (desirable) to live without strawberries in December (as an example), I enjoy them all the more for having to wait and dont take them for granted. Sorry, I'm rambling so I'll stop and hope you understand what I'm saying here!

Best way round that one is to shell your own


I agree. At the end of the day I think it is about informed choice and taking a responsible attitude to those choices and their consequences. We may not agree with someone else's choices but if they have been made in an informed and responsible manner and the person accepts that there are consequences and owns that so be it. Unfortunately not everyone is aware of that. As Alice says when you start looking you can be amazed at what you find for very little effort. Many of our countrymen and women don't look and are happy with mindless convenience. Shame because we know how much they are missing out on.

For the food we grow anyway. There are still things we aren't producing for ourselves and there similar principles will have to apply. We have to learn to think about our shopping, our consumption and wants. There are so many issues you can introduce into the debate when you consider items other than foodstuffs that you could end up paralysed with doubt. Somewhere a choice has to be made. Of course the decision could well be that actually the item is not required. Great. If it is required I suppose you have to make the best choice you can with the information at your disposal and accept that it may not be 100% perfect. Such is life and such is being human.

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Bright Blessings
Earthbabe
If at first you don't succeed, open a bottle of wine.

I apologise in advance if i offend anyone here, but for me the very thought of buying anything labelled as 'organic' is laughable. I go out of my way to avoid buying organically produced food (fruit and veg only - meat is another matter). The reason? i know what gets sprayed onto organic crops, i sell some of it! The Soil Association is a joke - you are led to believe that 'organic' food has not had any 'evil' pesticides sprayed on them - complete rubbish! of course it has, its just different pesticide to conventional crops. In reality most of the sprays used are nastier than the conventional ones e.g. nicotine used to kill aphids.

A quote from an article about copper sprays on organic potatoes, in my trade magazine 'Commercial Grower':

"A Scotish self-described 'potato enthusiast' is promoting a little known Hungarian spud as a solution for organic growers worried about the toxicity of copper. As they do not use ordinary pesticides, some organic growers spray with a solution of copper oxychloride to ward off deadly blight. Fife's Alan Romans sees it as problematic, 'its a heavy metal after all, there simply hasn't been enough research into its toxicity'...."

Yum, yum - anyone for organic potatoes?

Meat on the other hand is a different matter - i generally buy local free range where possible, and that may or may not be organic. I have issues with the organic idea of not treating animals with drugs when they are sick - animal welfare comes first in my book, antibiotics or not. In general though, free range and organic meat tastes so so much better than mass produced stuff.

I do shop at Tesco's as i have no choice (local farmers market clashes with work hours and local farm shops have silly opening hours and don't have the quality), but i am really anal about buying British - and if its out of season then i will buy produce like broccoli or lettuce from Spain or Portugal - purely because i know its the british growers' Spanish operations growing it, and their protocols are just as strict as their in season british ones. Plus - if it comes from Spain or Portugal its trucked over here, rather than flown. I have found some fabtastic places to buy meat locally, and regularly buy beef from my local farmer, and have sourced a good chicken, lamb and pork supply within a 30 min drive too.

For me, its not abut being organic or green, per se - its about being sustainable, and i know that many of the farmers i work with are busting a gut to be more sustainiable and improve the environment on their farms and in their working practices.

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Happy Gardening!

I know the chap who raises organic beef heareabouts sprays his fields and uses feed from local farms - not organic. It has always made me wonder how strict the rules are (and what they do allow, as you point out, Protea.)
Hate air-miles though. It's only ground-yards to my vegetables!

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I also look at the packaging when buying meat and veg - too much, or non-recyclable stuff like hybrid materials (eg plastic stuck to card/foil), and I'm very unlikely to buy it. For me it comes down to a choice of what's seasonal and what's in the shops on the day.

Protea raises a strong argument, and I think the real problem is that we just don't have enough information to weigh up all the pros and cons of what we buy. But for the vast majority of the population, we don't want to think too hard about what we're buying, so we trust the Soil Association logo as it should be (but obviously isn't) a mark of ethical growing.

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Dwell simply ~ love richly

I shop with regards to my purse Sometimes its organic, sometimes its green, sometimes fairtrade and sometimes its the ingredient thats needed for my meal!

In the past year since my life has changed (another story) I have started to look at different options, but a life spoiled by choices its hard to let go! We have been composting for over a year now, and recycling what we can within reasons for the collection box... this last month we have decided to recycle plastic too.

I buy biodegradable sandwich bags for my kids lunches. I don't use plastic bags from supermarkets where possible. We have for the first time made veg beds to grow some of our own. We have a second compost bin delivered, and two water butts. We are looking to the future of buying a smallholding and to expand on this theme... each move takes us closer to being greener but not necessarily organic!

Definately two separate topics but one that can in some instances clash.

Interesting thread...

Jan
x

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Jan A novice gardener - first year of growing

Some of the posts on this thread have made me think much more about the benefits of green and/or organic, not just to me but to the environment - its good to see other points of view rather than blindly carrying on with old habits. Keep the responses coming vines - a very interesting and eye opening thread!

A variation on the green theme is the enthusiasm with which the trendy people are embracing hybrid or electric vehicles, in particular the "Prius" as being wonderful for the environment.

A recent piece of research claimed that this was actually worse for the environment.

These types of vehicle use many exotic (for want of a better word) materials in its construction, particularly the electonics and battery. The carbon emissions and toxic waste or byproducts of manufacturing such a vehicle seemingly massively outweigh any gains by propelling it from A to B using hybrid or electric drive. Typically the vehicle is lugging round a large set of exotic batteries, with a limited lifecycle, which then have to be safely disposed of when the lifcycle expires. In addition while the hybrid unit still burns petrol, electricity used to charge a "pure" electric car comes from the supply grid which is majority supplied by fossil or nuclear, with a lower percentage of renewable e.g Hydro-electric.

Anyway, the research claimed that a Petrol engined V8 Jeep actually had a lower lifetime pollution cost than a Prius, as it was made of plain steel.

The simpler electronic car designs give other cause for worry as a TRL crash test on the G-WIZ electric car proved. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

What seems green is not always so.

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I don't see how an electric car can help - I mean the electricity to recharge the batteries was probably produced from burning coal in the first place.

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I find it strange that the word "organic" when attached to food brings home images of quality, sustainable foods with a low impact on the environment but when you dig deeper it can mean anything but that.

Green to me now means, sustainability, seasonality and low miles whilst organic means almost the opposite unless British in origin. Then there are the issues of what is actually allowed to be sprayed on organic crops and does that make them any better than conventional ones with regards to chemicals and especially heavy metals such as copper?

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I wonder how many people believe organic crops have not been sprayed with anything at all? "Organic" to me has the same connotations as "natural" or "healthy" i.e. meaningless labelling, designed to tap into a particular market.

I get an organic vegbox which costs no more than the supermarket and is advertised as locally produced seasonal veg as much as possible and no air freighted items. I'm actually a little relieved every time I find live bugs on the greens!

__________________
You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
Max Ehrmann, Desiderata

blog: http://allyheebiejeebie.blogspot.com/ and my (basic!) page: http://www.allythegardener.co.uk/

You've hit the nail on the head heebiejeebie, i *think* most organic buyers believe that their organic veg & fruit HASN'T been sprayed with anything - when in reality this is completely untrue.

What i will say though is that the very small producers who often supply just through box schemes, tend to be more of the 'sandal brigade' as we call them and DO produce stuff as 'organically' as possible - i.e. not spraying, improving the ground, and generally doing all the things that ARE possible if you farm on a small scale, and your customers don't care if they find a aphid on their strawberry.

The organic suppliers to the big supermarkets are the same growers who supply the conventional produce - they just have a seperate section/site for organics. They have to produce on a massive scale to keep the supermarkets stocked, and are under contract to do so. In addition (and this i think is the salient point) the majority of CUSTOMERS want their organic produce to look EXACTLY THE SAME as the conventional produce, i.e. no pests, no bruises, no signs of disease, perfectly shaped etc. etc...how exactly is this to be achieved without a conventional approach to crop protection (albeit with different , organically approved products)??

The organic buying public has got to wake up and realise that if they want 'organic' produce that hasn't been sprayed, tinkered with, or whatever - they've got to stop expecting it to look perfect - the odd aphid on a lettuce IS NOT GOING TO KILL YOU!!

Unfortunatley, while most GYO's are pretty clued up that non-perfect veg tastes great - the vast majority of the British population aren't so we're going to be stuck with organic veg that is clearly mis-understood by most people

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Happy Gardening!

I agree with most everything you say except I am not sure it is us peeps that wanted super model looks in our veg, I would have thought it is more beneficial to the farmer and the supermarkets to have uniformi veg - makes it easir to harvest, pack etc and once such change is implemented then because the way we now lead our lives we toe the line because for a lot of people there isnt any perceived alternative to a supermarket shop.

Hmm, perhaps TEB, but i doubt that the supermarkets would change their minds now and allow us to be able to buy miss-shapen fruit for example - and i bet their wastage would go through the roof!

I guess its something we'll just have to accept - but i really do think people should be more informed about exactly what 'organic' means

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There's vegetable growing in the family, but I must be adopted
Happy Gardening!

One of the supermarkets started selling slightly mis-shapened fruit but they were only marketing them for jamming or cooking or something despite the fact there was nothing wrong with them for normal eating!

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Some of us live in the past, always talking about back then. Some of us live in the future, always planning what we are going to do. And, then there are those, who neither look behind or ahead, but just enjoy the moment of right now.

Which one are you and is it how you want to be?

Agree totally with you first statement - it isnt going to happen, with your second statement - well its starting to look like its definately not PC to knock Organic - I just looked over the Friends of the Earth site as well as WWF UK and Organic Farmers UK and its all rosy in their gardens err fields

You are right Alison - it was Waitrose.

I did hear a few people say, when this happened, something along the lines of - well does it matter if it is misshapen, I'll just buy the cheaper stuff and eat that!! I think one of them was a local radio presenter.

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Bright Blessings
Earthbabe
If at first you don't succeed, open a bottle of wine.