Fruit Tree Arch - structural advise please

**vicky** · 14-12-2008, 02:42 PM

I've got a metal arch in the garden, �30 from the garden centre, can't remember the make but they are sold in lots of garden centres - even if you bought a few of these it might work out cheaper?
By the way, the fruit arch sounds a lovely idea!

**FB.** · 14-12-2008, 03:07 PM

What you are attempting will require a fair amount of work and the correct pruning - every winter for a few years and then switching to every summer, once the archway is finished.

Cordons need support because they are traditionally grown at an angle, which puts one-sided strain on the roots and graft. Upright cordons (aka minarettes) don't really need support (I don't support my minarettes). The other reason that cordons are supported is because they are grown on low or medium vigour rootstocks that don't have particularly strong roots.

What varieties of apple/pear - and what rootstocks - have you chosen?

**Storming Norman** · 15-12-2008, 10:00 PM

The cordons all pre-trained and pruned - about 4.5 foot high and look to be about 3 years old.
Apple Sunset is on M9. This could actually be a bit older by trunk size.
Apple Ellisons Orange - the root stock is not on the label but bought form a reputable supplier as a specific cordon supply.
Pear, Beth and Beurre Hardy, from the same source as cordon. I should really check the rootstock with them.

I am happy to prune and train to fit - it will be easy to reach from my new paths on steps, and will be great to have a limited supply of varied fruits I already like very much. Certainly a great deal easier than controlling my 60 year old fully grown cooking apple tree that we inherited. It takes me at least 10 hours per year to keep this pruned and keeping the height under control is a challenge that cannot be missed for a year.

In the past year I have slotted in a Scrumptious on M9 growing in a minarette style, a pear Concorde bush on 'patio' rootstock and a Victoria plum bush on pixy. My mother has planted similar trees and 10 years on they clearly are limited and simple to manage [in comparison to the cooker].

I do love the cooker - its very early to produce and becomes an eater after a while but it really is a pain to manage - and my space is limited.

**Snadger** · 15-12-2008, 11:47 PM

Are you wanting to be able to see a metal arch or are you just wanting to create an apple pear arch? If it's the latter you only need vertical supports of your choice and can train the leaders into an arch as they will arch naturally from the vertical position if string or rope is tied to help them (I've even seen them grafted at the junction)
I hope this makes sense!

PS I am a time served blacksmith and 400 quid seems very steep!

**FB.** · 16-12-2008, 06:36 PM

If you have rootstock M9, you will definitely need a supporting structure because M9's roots are rather weak. I would also recommend that you feed them with plenty of nitrogen and plenty of water in the early years, as well as removing all fruits for at least the first growing season. Don't do too much summer pruning because that will stop them growing and encourage them to fruit instead.
From my experience, if you're not very pro-active in getting M9 to grow, they will channel all their energy into producing large, high-quality fruit, and may not grow much - if at all.

Regarding your mature tree, to calm it down and improve fruiting, try cutting all new growth back to just one new bud in early August. I have a Tydeman's Late Orange that will run for the heavens, but pruning in August keps it completely under control and increases fruit buds for the next season.

**Storming Norman** · 16-12-2008, 07:57 PM

Thanks for the advice

I really appreciate the advice folks.

Yes I thought the blacksmith was expensive - the other one I contacted wanted even more money. Does anyone know a good blacksmith in Surrey that does not stiff you? Any thoughts on the Agriframes arch?

The Tydmans tree is making my mouth water - such tasty fruit. I am definately going to try this suggested technique - not that I don't get buckets of fruit but I would appreciate it being more manageable.

M9 - clearly very restrictive, and good to know how to make it really work. Once I have found out what the other trees are on I can make a decision on how to handle this. It will be pretty sheltered

FB can you give me some more advice - I have a yen to buy a Kidds Orange Red [my favourite] already trained as a step over on MM106, but I have concerns that this will be too vigerous a rootstock. My soil is clay/loam and plants grow out out their skin here. Is this too much as a step over?

Thanks Ann

**FB.** · 17-12-2008, 12:40 AM

MM106 is rather a strong rootstock for stepovers in a favourable location.
I would prefer M26 or weaker if i were you, but having said that, I have some Hazels that grow twice as strongly as MM106 (my hazels would manage 2ft per season, MM106 manages 1ft on my poor, dry, sandy soil), yet I cut my hazels back to between 1-4 new buds each summer and they respond by ceasing growth for that season and then spend the rest of the growing season putting their effort into producing good quantities of catkins and "flower" buds for the next season.

If I were you, I would try to get the Kidd's Orange on M26 rootstock (fairly easy to come by as a maiden), but if you must have a Kidd's and MM106 is all you can find, you might be able to keep it as a stepover, especially if -once it's established- you don't feed it, don't water it and grow grass almost up to the stem. Reduced amounts of feeding and watering will reduce growth and increase fruitfulness. Growing grass around it will cause the grass to compete for nutrients and water, which enhances fruiting. Increased fruiting means less growth.

**Storming Norman** · 17-12-2008, 08:00 PM

MM106 cordons

Hi FB,

I Have just found out the rest of my cordons are on rather vigorous rootstock.

MM106 for the apple and quince c for the pear, trained as cordons but then again........... Am I taking a risk with the MM106?

Thanks for your thoughts about the step over - I had those reservations as well. Clearly my soil is too fertile to take that sort of a risk. I am too keen on getting a properly grown Kidds Orange to want to take on a maiden really but will think about your suggestion.

Ann

**FB.** · 17-12-2008, 09:30 PM

The MM106's should be just about OK as cordons. In fact, with the varieties you have chosen, it may be a blessing in disguise......
MM106 is the weakest-growing rootstock that is resistant to woolly apple aphid (WAA). WAA can be a serious pest (it's very serious here).
Note that resistant does not mean complete immunity, but means much reduced severity of attacks.

WAA is a cause of wounds that allow canker spores to enter the wood and attack the tree. If the apple variety has low resistance to canker, it could easily succumb to multiple canker attacks getting into WAA wounds. Heavy pruning may be required to cut out all the cankers before they spread and become serious.
Additionally, WAA will colonise pruning wounds, encouraging canker to enter. With heavily-pruned apple shapes (such as cordons, minarettes, espaliers, fans, arches etc) WAA attacks can be troublesome on the pruning cuts - especially if the variety has low resistance to the canker attacks that often follow WAA damage.

Canker-susceptible varieties include some of your favourties: Kidd's Orange Red, Ellison's Orange, Sunset.
I affectionately call my Ellison and my Spartan "the canker brothers" because of my need to keep a close eye on them for canker (Spartan is related to Kidd's via the Red Delicious/Empire/McIntosh family line of apples).

Just feed the MM106's less than the M9, prune the MM106's harder and allow them to have some fruit at a very young age. In the meantime, try to do the opposite for the M9, to equalise the growth rates.

For growing as a stepover, I'd either choose a canker-resistant variety, or a very weak variety on MM106.

I did a thread several weeks ago titled: "growing apples without sprays" that you might find useful.

**andrewo** · 18-12-2008, 02:23 PM

I suggest the following, I have made mine fruit arch out of two metal arches (1/2 inch steel) that I commissioned from a blacksmith, they cost �18 for two 8 foot high ones. I drove them into the ground for 1 foot, 6 feet apart and used bamboo canes to create laterals for tying in the trees. I have 6 fruit trees over the path on these and prune them every September to keep them in shape. After 3 years they have met and I have tied them together at the top (you can graft them together). In another 3 years I will take away the arches and supports, as the trees will support themselves then.

Even cheaper, you can get a ton of willow (not green willow) or hazel and build your own arch, it will be rustic, it will be tied together with string but it will do the job and save you money.

Fruit arches are well worth it, this year I got around 30 apples per tree.

**Storming Norman** · 18-12-2008, 08:33 PM

Oh dear.

I really DO have woolly aphid in the cooking apple tree, I have to keep it sprayed to control it [and it is much better managed than when we moved here] but almost impossible to get rid of.- one of the reasons I am so keen to get the tree under controlled. Apart from the fact that I cannot keep up with all those cooking apples. Not much canker though.

A good warning - thanks FB.

Can I ask the Rhubarb man who his blacksmith is and does he deliver to Surrey - it's got to be cheaper than the cheeky so and so's around here. 2 did not even respond to my enquiries - obviously not enough in it for them to be bothered. Around here artisan crafts are a licence to print money.

**FB.** · 18-12-2008, 09:49 PM

I would guess that your "vigorous cooking apple" is Bramley.
I have a Bramley on M26 rootstock. It gets attacked by WAA but the damage is only minor and is mostly around old pruning cuts, with the WAA getting between the dead bark and the inner wood. Bramley has fairly good resistance to canker - the cankers remain small and don't tend to spread too far before some kind of immune response blocks further growth of the canker.
Your apples on MM106 are not likely to be seriously troubled by WAA.

WAA is almost impossible to get rid of. They also live underground and attack the roots - where you can't spray them.
I don't take any direct action against WAA. I let tiny parasitic wasps attack them. I use MM106 and MM111 rootstocks - where possible - to reduce WAA attack.....and I have a sacrificial "Grenadier" apple on M9 rootstock.
It is canker resistant and seems more tempting to the WAA (probably attracted to the M9 rootstock) than any other combination that I have (it's my only M9, because the WAA here seem to prefer M9) - it's growth is severely retarded as a result, but it seems to spare most of the others from serious attack. The WAA numbers get so high on this Grenadier/M9 that it usually attracts lots of WAA predators that also roam around my other apples looking for WAA.

**andrewo** · 19-12-2008, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by Storming Norman View Post

Can I ask the Rhubarb man who his blacksmith is and does he deliver to Surrey - it's got to be cheaper than the cheeky so and so's around here. 2 did not even respond to my enquiries - obviously not enough in it for them to be bothered. Around here artisan crafts are a licence to print money.

I went and asked him for you and he said, no, the cost of courier would be too much and he only provides and ships to around this area, sorry.

BUT....

If you could get some 1/2 inch steel yourself, you could bend it shape around a barrel and then plastic coat it. It would be cheaper, much cheaper and means a bit of labour.

**Storming Norman** · 19-12-2008, 06:41 PM

Hi FB,

No I don't think it is a Bramley. They are pretty easy to spot. I did know what it was once. A lady who was born in my house came round once and told me, as she saw it planted when she was young. It matures in August in the main and by September it is ripened and some are sweet enough to eat from the tree. 2 weeks later it is all over [usually the border, the patio, and definitely the compost bin!]. Does not keep at all.

However it is pretty hardy with the aphid - not much fun about the aphids in the ground bit. I am going to put the M9 Sunset in the front garden and get an MM106 Kidds for the arch instead - will have to be maiden, that is all that is left.

I cannot find your growing apples etc post - do you have a date that can help me find it?

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Fruit Tree Arch - structural advise please

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