First crop Apples looking a bit diseased

From the pictures it looks like apple scab, e.g. Apple scab

I've never seen it in real life though, but an expert will probably be along shortly.

Scab.
That's a surprising amount of scab for a variety considered to have resistance.
Is your climate especially wet?
Is your tree true to type?

East Surrey, so no, I wouldn't have thought so. It is been a pretty wet August so far. The summer generally has seen more grey skies than blue ones, so perhaps that has contributed to damper than usual air.
Soil is heavy clay (but ground was prepared well before tree went in).

As far as I know - Keeper's supplied it.

Yes, this variety IS supposed to have scab resistance. Hmmm.

How long does it take for the condition to manifest?
Would anything I've done have contributed to it? I was forced to spray the tree a while back after a particularly heavy infestation of aphids.
Does on set of scab have anything to do with tree's age?
Having shown susceptibility already will the tree be vunerable in future or is this a seasonal thing?
Are these apples usable if I cut the dodgy bits off?

Thanks Martin. Thanks FB

The scab on the fruits looks like it's several weeks old.
The spots on your fruit look like they're a few weeks old and there's also a few weeks between the infection being acquired and the symptoms appearing.

If the tree came from Keepers I think it's very likely to be true to type.

The only significant contribution to the tree acquiring scab would be weather conditions and a source of scab nearby which is able to infect your variety (scab from one variety doesn't necessarily have the ability to attack another unrelated variety).

It is possible that your spraying for aphids upset the balance of creatures and fungi on the tree if the spray contained more than just insecticide. There are types of 'friendly fungi' which naturally live on the tree, cause no harm, and will make it more difficult (but not impossible) for scab to establish, but if you've sprayed fungicide you may have killed them.

Generally older trees are more prone to scab - especially older trees of common varieties. Scab gradually evolves with time to perfect its ability to infect a tree.

With your tree having already suffered from scab, the chances of recurrence are quite high. Your best chance of a cure would be to not allow any of its fallen leaves or fruits to remain on the ground to reinfect it next spring.

The fruit is usable if you cut off the scabby bits. The scab spots should only be on the skin and won't go more than a millimetre or two into the flesh of the fruit except where the skin has split.

My suspicion is that either your tree brought scab with it from the nursery, or someone nearby has a scabby Kidd's Orange Red (or one of its close relatives) which has infected your tree, or possibly there's a commercial or farm orchard nearby growing the variety and the spores are blowing on the wind.

I have a small bush of Laxton's Superb. It suffered badly from scab in its early years. Then I discovered an enormous old Laxton's Superb tree, with scab, about half a mile away. By random chance the old tree was cut down and since then my Laxton's Superb has been free from scab.

I'm surprised older trees are more prone. I would've thought older specimens, being better established, would have better resistance.
Is KOR a common tree?

Half a mile away! I was going ask if you could elaborate on "someone nearby..." As it goes, there are one or two apple trees in neighbouring gardens - two over and three over - which are a fair bit closer than the old Laxton's was to you. I have no idea the varieties, but I know the 'two over' trees are not much older (or bigger) than mine, whereas those in the 'three over' garden are fully grown half-standards, possibly standards, and at least 30 years old. Being aware of who lives there, I would imagine (though I don't know for certain), that those trees have been fairly neglected these past 10 years. And I think that will continue to be the case for the foreseeable future.

Can the scab spores survive on the tree itself from one year to the next even if the affected leaves drop in autumn and are quickly cleared away?
Is it better to prune out any affected shoots as they are identified rather than wait until the usual winter dormancy?
Which has more bearing: weather conditions or local source of infection - would the tree be scab free next year if the summer was consistently hot and dry?
Is scab on it's own essentially a cosmetic problem? Is it that affected trees are then vulnerable to more aggressive infections?

Great info as ever, FB. Many thanks

.

Older trees have had more time for nasty strains of disease to find them, or for strains to evolve more efficient ways to attack them.

No, it's fairly rare. But one of its parents is Cox (very common) and one of its offspring is Gala (a shop favourite and one which is often found as bare-root trees in bargain shops, so there will be plenty of Gala trees around the UK).
I once had a 'Winston' apple tree but after a few years its scab resistance failed catastrophically so I had to get rid of it. Winston is thought to be Cox x Worcester, both being very common varieties, so I guess a Cox- or Worcester- strain of scab from a nearby tree mutated and then landed on my tree.
It's much easier for scab to jump from related varieties than unrelated varieties.
The rare old triploids which I grow seem to never suffer from anything, probably because nobody grows them and nobody even has anything related to them - at least not near me, or not in this country.

Maybe there's a commercial operation of KOR near you scattering billions of fungal spores on the wind. Or maybe the trees in nearby gardens are relatives of KOR and therefore gives the diseases a head start in finding ways to attack your tree.

However, in my area KOR seems very prone to canker, so perhaps it's not as disease resistant as has been claimed. Or maybe it prefers certain soils or climates (some varieties' resistance can change with soil type and climate).


Most scab spores will be on the fallen leaves. If the scab is severe sometimes it affects shoots.

You might have to remove an awful lot of leaves and as the tree gets bigger it will become more difficult to remove affected leaves.

A source of local infection (or infection carried from the nursery) has the greatest bearing. I grow Gravenstein which is supposed to be quite disease prone. But that's according to people overseas; Gravenstein is very rare in the UK and I find mine to be 100% fungus-resistant since planting several years ago, despite some badly fungus-diseased (scab, canker, mildew, phytophthora) old trees dotted around here and there within a mile radius.

In some cases it's only cosmetic.
If the fruits are badly scabbed and the skin splits the fruit rots and the whole crop can be lost, but not all varieties suffer split skin with scab.
Scabby trees are weakened so it could lead to a gradual decline in the tree, encouraging other opportunistic attacks by various diseases.
The quality of the growing conditions will determine how well the tree copes with scab.

I have been battling with this on a James Grieve for a couple of years now, resorted to spraying, but not with any great success. I remove the infected leaves and apples as they come, but there's a lot of damaged fruit going in the bin.

I must say I'm not too impressed to be hit with a problem like this so early on.
Especially as a lot of thought went into selecting this tree according to preferences and local conditions. Plus it's a stand alone feature on a lawn, not part of an orchard, so the aesthetic aspect is pretty important. (And lastly the KOR is stated as being a fairly light cropper, so any spoiled fruit will be more keenly felt).
Oh well, hopefully the scab can be at least managed and with any luck prevented altogether from becoming a regularly recurring problem. Growing conditions are pretty good I think. The tree seems to be otherwise healthy. There are even one or two fruits higher up the tree that look fairly unmarked at this point, so fingers crossed they stay that way.

Thanks for all your help.



What age is your James Grieve, and roughly what percentage of your crop is being lost?

I wouldn't be impressed either.

I would be considering its removal and replacement by a more resistant variety. I would be looking at the not-so-common triploids which often have very strong disease resistance.

If I did that a new tree would need to occupy the same piece of ground - would that cause a problem? KOR tree is on it's third season.

I have been reading up, and think these two would make a good pairing in some form or other (they tick all the boxes):

Court Pendu Plat
Edward Vll


So given that, why do you think triploid trees are not more widely grown? The sterility maybe?
Do they grow on the same apple rootstocks ie. with the M prefix?
Are they more vigorous trees generally?

I'm not a fan of russets. It's the texture and dryness which doesn't appeal.

Of the remaining triploids you're familiar with, what would you recommend?

Just put down that axe, Philty, I've come to ask for a second chance for your tree, I'm the KOR lover.

As it has been every year, this year is unusual down here in Somerset. We had lots of aphids, which led to distorted leaves on the young growth on the trees, and manky fruitlets. Its been cold every evening and rained a lot, so there's a lot of scab on varieties that are normally healthy. Perhaps because it didn't recognise that it was summertime, we had very little June drop, so the diseased apples stayed on the trees in clusters ( before I went round removing them). I have as neighbouring trees on MM106, eight year old Kidd's Orange Red, James Grieve, Court Pendu Plat, Norfolk Royal and Ribston Pippin. The last two had apples like yours, before I cut the worst off though they have been healthy every year till now. The Court Pendu Plat has put on loads of new growth, and there's about five apples on the tree, one more than usual. The KOR and James Grieve have had good healthy fruit, a good crop, though the Kidd's has snapped a branch under the weight of the beautiful apples. Some of the Norfolk Royals have decided dents, I'm not sure if that is due to bitter pit, scab or damage from the frequent hailstorms last month. I think its an anomaly and expect the damage to disappear next year, Though I will be a touch more heavyhanded when it comes to pruning the troubled ones this winter.

And here's the 25 year old Kidd's Orange Red today in the neighbouring orchard, a wall of cascading healthy apples.

I think it's a moderate case of bitter pit (second picture). Your first picture might also be bitter pit, but might be one of the less common fungal spots such as Alternaria (or maybe a bit of both).

I think your CPP light cropping is lack of pollinator.
Most of the late-flowering varieties (including Edward VII) look like 'undiscovered' triploids to me.

My Edward VII has large, dark, rounded, thick, leathery leaves, large blossoms, good disease resistance and is fairly vigorous - all signs of triploid.
Having allegedly descended from the triploid Blenheim and ?diploid/triploid? Golden Noble it wouldn't be surprising if Edward VII is triploid or aneuploid.
Golden Noble tends to produce poor quality/tiny/flattened/lopsided pips which is a feature common among triploids. Plus it has good disease resistance which is another notable feature of triploids.
So quite possibly Edward VII is a triploid, produced from a triploid x triploid.

It's around 10 years old and I'm losing around 20 percent with another 50 percent disfigured but useable. Ok for cooking and if I start cider making next year, it won't be a huge problem. We are suffering from damp weather this year, probably not helping.